6 ms·

> Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but everybody talks about electric cars. Yes, because cars make sense when you've

by clarry 8y ago

> Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but everybody talks about electric cars. Yes, because cars make sense when you've got more than your own arse to haul. Or when you don't want to end up in your destination dripping wet. Or when you want to sit in a warm cabin instead of fighting frostburns on a bicycle. Or when you don't want to be slipping on ice or getting stuck in snow..

gregknicholson 8y ago
You could get most of those things using an electric cargo bike with a canopy roof/windscreen. It wouldn't solve the Fred Flintstone problem — The Man must provide the propulsion for all of his family because Man — but that's a social hurdle, not a technical one.
- clarry 8y ago
  I don't think it's roof or windscreen, it's both if you want to stay dry. That's a big increase in size, mass, and wind resistance (including susceptibility to side winds that can tip you over). That might have you consider having more than two wheels for stability, and windshield wipers, and a big battery to haul all that... at some point, we'll be wondering whether it's a car with pedals or a bike? https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/1885-1886.html https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/18...
  - adrianN 8y ago
    You can build electric cars that are traditional two ton vehicles or you could build electric "cars" that weigh 95% less but still protect you from the elements. Like the PodRide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4xgpOBrEp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4xgpOBrEp4
- JabavuAdams 8y ago
  You must live somewhere warm. I'm getting sad just thinking of my winter commute. Winter is coming. Bleargh. Wait, there's magic bubble of warmth and comfort that will take me to my destination without having to mill around with the other cold yet sweaty 99% Chimpanzees in their puffy insulated layers? Sold!
  - gregknicholson 8y ago
    > You must live somewhere warm. Not especially :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester#Climate > Wait, there's magic bubble of warmth and comfort that will take me to my destination without having to mill around with the other cold yet sweaty 99% Chimpanzees in their puffy insulated layers? Sold! A lot of people don't actually seem to be sold on this, though. They seem aggrieved when it isn't also faster than walking, cycling and public transport, because they've been sold a top speed. In the local news this week: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/night-manchester-ground-halt-15324465 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches... But a car takes up several times more area on the ground, compared to the same number of people walking or using wheelchairs, bicycles or buses — there just isn't room for every individual to have that level of luxury and leave room to move at speed. I found this essay insightful: http://unevenearth.org/2018/08/the-social-ideology-of-the-motorcar/ http://unevenearth.org/2018/08/the-social-ideology-of-the-mo... — via https://www.notechmagazine.com/2018/08/no-tech-reader-19.html https://www.notechmagazine.com/2018/08/no-tech-reader-19.htm...
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug
stephengillie 8y ago
It's like GP has never shopped at Costco. Edit: or had elderly parents. When someone needs to use a walker, good luck getting them on a bicycle. Plus, where do you carry the walker?
- adrianN 8y ago
  I have an elderly mother. She uses a cargo tricycle. She can't drive.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  “Some people can’t use bikes, therefore they’re dumb” is a bad argument.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Well, the actual argument is "Some people can’t use bikes, therefore banning cars is dumb". EDIT: I made a factual statement. If you downvote me for it, at least have the courtesy to say why. If there's something dumb, it's downvoting for factual statements that aren't even expressing either opinion.
    - village-idiot 8y ago
      You’re probably getting downvoted for making up what people are talking about and then arguing against it, which is a straw man. Advocating for more people to use car-less transit more often is not the same as banning cars.
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        Huh, what? Saying that anyone says "bikes are dumb" isn't making up what people are talking about? The argument revolves around the fact that there are a lot of situations when a car(-like vehicle) is appropriate, not that bikes are dumb as a whole. Literally no one says bikes are dumb.
        8y ago
lorenzhs 8y ago
All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Cargo bikes (with electric assist, if you wish) can haul a tremendous amount of cargo or multiple kids. And weather is really only a problem if you're badly equipped. Get a hardshell jacket and some rainpants, and rain is no longer a problem. Get a warm jacket, gloves, and a hat against the cold (maybe some warm leggings if it gets really cold). And people not knowing how to behave on icy roads is a major problem if that person is steering a car. On a properly equipped bike, not so much.
- clarry 8y ago
  > All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Dude, I've been cycling in all weather for 20 years. I've been hauling stuff, small and big, light and heavy. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. I've gotten stuck in snow so many times. Turns out a bicycle just doesn't have a whole lot of traction or stability when riding a crumbling layer of snow on ice. No, studs don't fix it, and cargo definitely doesn't help it. At least I can hop off and hike the bike, but maybe not if it's a heavy electric cargo bike with guitars and work equipment loaded. I've gotten soaked so many times, and even if I've got an outer layer that keeps me dry, there are many destinations you might want to go to where they don't exactly have the facilities for you to strip and put away dripping rain gear. I've also got my cargo soaked so many times, turns out protecting the cargo from water isn't quite as easy as putting a nice jacket on. I can only imagine how much harder it gets when you're trying to haul big cargo. And I've gotten soaked many times because weather can be unpredictable and having full rain gear on you where ever you go is a little too nuts. And no matter how much I dress, getting glasses completely dirtied with water mist or the face blasted with wind when it's -35degC outside isn't any fun, at all. I'd say I'm a rather avid cyclist, hell I rode my fixed gear road bike with 25mm road wheels to work, on snow and ice, on the coldest of winter days, because the grease on my winter bike's freewheel stiffened up and prevented the pawls from engaging. I go pretty far. But I would not expect the general population to want or even be able to put up with anywhere near as much. And then you need to make a trip longer than you can handle on a bike.
  - lorenzhs 8y ago
village-idiot 8y ago
There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.

by clarry 8y ago

gregknicholson 8y ago

You could get most of those things using an electric cargo bike with a canopy roof/windscreen. It wouldn't solve the Fred Flintstone problem — The Man must provide the propulsion for all of his family because Man — but that's a social hurdle, not a technical one.

clarry 8y ago
I don't think it's roof or windscreen, it's both if you want to stay dry. That's a big increase in size, mass, and wind resistance (including susceptibility to side winds that can tip you over). That might have you consider having more than two wheels for stability, and windshield wipers, and a big battery to haul all that... at some point, we'll be wondering whether it's a car with pedals or a bike? https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/1885-1886.html https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/18...
- adrianN 8y ago
  You can build electric cars that are traditional two ton vehicles or you could build electric "cars" that weigh 95% less but still protect you from the elements. Like the PodRide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4xgpOBrEp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4xgpOBrEp4
JabavuAdams 8y ago
You must live somewhere warm. I'm getting sad just thinking of my winter commute. Winter is coming. Bleargh. Wait, there's magic bubble of warmth and comfort that will take me to my destination without having to mill around with the other cold yet sweaty 99% Chimpanzees in their puffy insulated layers? Sold!
- gregknicholson 8y ago
  > You must live somewhere warm. Not especially :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester#Climate > Wait, there's magic bubble of warmth and comfort that will take me to my destination without having to mill around with the other cold yet sweaty 99% Chimpanzees in their puffy insulated layers? Sold! A lot of people don't actually seem to be sold on this, though. They seem aggrieved when it isn't also faster than walking, cycling and public transport, because they've been sold a top speed. In the local news this week: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/night-manchester-ground-halt-15324465 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches... But a car takes up several times more area on the ground, compared to the same number of people walking or using wheelchairs, bicycles or buses — there just isn't room for every individual to have that level of luxury and leave room to move at speed. I found this essay insightful: http://unevenearth.org/2018/08/the-social-ideology-of-the-motorcar/ http://unevenearth.org/2018/08/the-social-ideology-of-the-mo... — via https://www.notechmagazine.com/2018/08/no-tech-reader-19.html https://www.notechmagazine.com/2018/08/no-tech-reader-19.htm...
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug

stephengillie 8y ago

It's like GP has never shopped at Costco. Edit: or had elderly parents. When someone needs to use a walker, good luck getting them on a bicycle. Plus, where do you carry the walker?

adrianN 8y ago
I have an elderly mother. She uses a cargo tricycle. She can't drive.
village-idiot 8y ago
“Some people can’t use bikes, therefore they’re dumb” is a bad argument.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Well, the actual argument is "Some people can’t use bikes, therefore banning cars is dumb". EDIT: I made a factual statement. If you downvote me for it, at least have the courtesy to say why. If there's something dumb, it's downvoting for factual statements that aren't even expressing either opinion.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    You’re probably getting downvoted for making up what people are talking about and then arguing against it, which is a straw man. Advocating for more people to use car-less transit more often is not the same as banning cars.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      Huh, what? Saying that anyone says "bikes are dumb" isn't making up what people are talking about? The argument revolves around the fact that there are a lot of situations when a car(-like vehicle) is appropriate, not that bikes are dumb as a whole. Literally no one says bikes are dumb.
      - 8y ago

lorenzhs 8y ago

All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Cargo bikes (with electric assist, if you wish) can haul a tremendous amount of cargo or multiple kids. And weather is really only a problem if you're badly equipped. Get a hardshell jacket and some rainpants, and rain is no longer a problem. Get a warm jacket, gloves, and a hat against the cold (maybe some warm leggings if it gets really cold). And people not knowing how to behave on icy roads is a major problem if that person is steering a car. On a properly equipped bike, not so much.

clarry 8y ago
> All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Dude, I've been cycling in all weather for 20 years. I've been hauling stuff, small and big, light and heavy. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. I've gotten stuck in snow so many times. Turns out a bicycle just doesn't have a whole lot of traction or stability when riding a crumbling layer of snow on ice. No, studs don't fix it, and cargo definitely doesn't help it. At least I can hop off and hike the bike, but maybe not if it's a heavy electric cargo bike with guitars and work equipment loaded. I've gotten soaked so many times, and even if I've got an outer layer that keeps me dry, there are many destinations you might want to go to where they don't exactly have the facilities for you to strip and put away dripping rain gear. I've also got my cargo soaked so many times, turns out protecting the cargo from water isn't quite as easy as putting a nice jacket on. I can only imagine how much harder it gets when you're trying to haul big cargo. And I've gotten soaked many times because weather can be unpredictable and having full rain gear on you where ever you go is a little too nuts. And no matter how much I dress, getting glasses completely dirtied with water mist or the face blasted with wind when it's -35degC outside isn't any fun, at all. I'd say I'm a rather avid cyclist, hell I rode my fixed gear road bike with 25mm road wheels to work, on snow and ice, on the coldest of winter days, because the grease on my winter bike's freewheel stiffened up and prevented the pawls from engaging. I go pretty far. But I would not expect the general population to want or even be able to put up with anywhere near as much. And then you need to make a trip longer than you can handle on a bike.
- lorenzhs 8y ago

village-idiot 8y ago

There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.