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Every time I read about this it makes me think back to the video of the cartel depositing perfectly sized boxes at a HSBC bank.

vfclists 8y ago
Wasn't that Wachovia bank, or was Wachovia a subsidiary of HSBC? The $352 billion seems quite close to the $400 billion laundered by Wachovia.
deleted 8y ago
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liftbigweights 8y ago
Well HSBC ( Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation ) was created by the british after the opium wars to launder opium money out of china to the west. If any bank is adept at procuring drug money, it's HSBC. It's a shame how little we are taught about the opium wars in the US. It fundamentally changed the world. Some historians describe it as the greatest wealth transfer in human history. The capital extracted from china is what funded some of the largest banks in the world today, the industrial revolution in the US/britain and political dynasties well into the 20th century. Of course it left china in shambles, but the opium trade was the true gold rush of the 19th century. https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/28/opinion/the-opium-war-s-secret-history.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/28/opinion/the-opium-war-s-s...
- infinity0 8y ago
  Can you put some numbers on that? How much money was transferred, in today's dollars?
  - liftbigweights 8y ago
    It's impossible to say. We can realistically only see the broad strokes of history. 1. We know that the west was running a significant trade deficit with china. To such a degree that we finally decided war was the only option. We know that soon after the first opium war, china started running a trade deficit with the west. 2. We know that economic impact was so significant it collapsed much of chinese society and led to the greatest catastrophe in the 19th century. Up to 30 million people died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion Putting that into perspective, up to 20 million chinese during ww2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties 3. We know that half of the largest western banks were founded in the mid 1800s ( HSBC, Wells Fargo, BNP Paribas, Santander, Deutsche Bank, Toronto-Dominion, Royal Bank of Canada, Societe Generale, etc ). Doesn't mean that all the banks were financed by opium money but that immense capital accumulation occurred in the west making it possible to found a large number of banks. 4. We know enough capital was accumulated in the west to heavily industrialize. Though we credit britain with starting the industrial revolution in the early 1700s, it didn't become significant until the mid 1800s when britain and primarily the US went on a major industrial campaign. 5. On the flip side, we know that china didn't have the capital or stability to industrialize. 6. We know opium money produced at least two US presidents in short time. As for getting a specific number. I don't know how we'd even get that. We know it was significant enough that it completely tilted the world in favor of the west and ruined china for 100 years.
    - acct1771 8y ago
      Sources on the Presidential funding? Not that I'm in disbelief or even mildly surprised.

vfclists 8y ago

Wasn't that Wachovia bank, or was Wachovia a subsidiary of HSBC? The $352 billion seems quite close to the $400 billion laundered by Wachovia.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

liftbigweights 8y ago

Well HSBC ( Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation ) was created by the british after the opium wars to launder opium money out of china to the west. If any bank is adept at procuring drug money, it's HSBC. It's a shame how little we are taught about the opium wars in the US. It fundamentally changed the world. Some historians describe it as the greatest wealth transfer in human history. The capital extracted from china is what funded some of the largest banks in the world today, the industrial revolution in the US/britain and political dynasties well into the 20th century. Of course it left china in shambles, but the opium trade was the true gold rush of the 19th century. https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/28/opinion/the-opium-war-s-secret-history.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/28/opinion/the-opium-war-s-s...

infinity0 8y ago
Can you put some numbers on that? How much money was transferred, in today's dollars?
- liftbigweights 8y ago
  It's impossible to say. We can realistically only see the broad strokes of history. 1. We know that the west was running a significant trade deficit with china. To such a degree that we finally decided war was the only option. We know that soon after the first opium war, china started running a trade deficit with the west. 2. We know that economic impact was so significant it collapsed much of chinese society and led to the greatest catastrophe in the 19th century. Up to 30 million people died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion Putting that into perspective, up to 20 million chinese during ww2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties 3. We know that half of the largest western banks were founded in the mid 1800s ( HSBC, Wells Fargo, BNP Paribas, Santander, Deutsche Bank, Toronto-Dominion, Royal Bank of Canada, Societe Generale, etc ). Doesn't mean that all the banks were financed by opium money but that immense capital accumulation occurred in the west making it possible to found a large number of banks. 4. We know enough capital was accumulated in the west to heavily industrialize. Though we credit britain with starting the industrial revolution in the early 1700s, it didn't become significant until the mid 1800s when britain and primarily the US went on a major industrial campaign. 5. On the flip side, we know that china didn't have the capital or stability to industrialize. 6. We know opium money produced at least two US presidents in short time. As for getting a specific number. I don't know how we'd even get that. We know it was significant enough that it completely tilted the world in favor of the west and ruined china for 100 years.
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Sources on the Presidential funding? Not that I'm in disbelief or even mildly surprised.