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Would this even be a story if people were drinking coffee instead? The active ingredient in Red Bull is caffeine. Yet a cup of coffee has more caffeine than a R

Would this even be a story if people were drinking coffee instead? The active ingredient in Red Bull is caffeine. Yet a cup of coffee has more caffeine than a Red Bull. Their marketing has been very effective in convincing people that energy drinks are more than just a caffeinated drink with a bunch of other chemicals that don’t really work. Because of that, people vilify these various drinks, and now we get an article telling us that the drinks are contributing to PTSD, instead of the obviously greater contributing factor: being in a war zone under constant threat of death.

ethbro 8y ago
+ Sugar
- Keyframe 8y ago
  Yeah, I thought real kick comes from the high sugar content. I used to consume a lot of sugar, but over time I kind of laid off of sugar. Recently, I drank one monster can. Holy shit - I was buzzed and exhausted after.
stonecraftwolf 8y ago
I don’t know, but I do know caffeine can be a trigger for many people with PTSD. The military is probably not a great place to encourage use of substances that can trigger PTSD episodes, but they do a lot worse to soldiers, so...
saiya-jin 8y ago
Isn't in all red bulls quite a bit of sugar/aspartam? Not a healthy stuff, although it shouldn't cause any PTSD. And what about taurine? Not really very explored substance. Personally I drink similar stuff maybe 2x per year, when I have a long (>1000km) drive ahead. Otherwise wouldn't touch that chemical junk with a 10 foot pole.
- paulcole 8y ago
  I can’t imagine ingesting chemicals. Do you have any recommended chemical-free foods?
  - beached_whale 8y ago
    vacuum
    - jwally 8y ago
      ...something feels unnatural about this
  - gaius 8y ago
    It’s pretty clear what people mean when they say chemicals in food, so this pedantry is less impressive than perhaps you intended.
jcrawfordor 8y ago
Red Bull is honestly not that popular in this crowd though, the major energy drinks you see are Monster, Rockstar, and as mentioned, Rip It (really an offbrand of the former two from the maker of Shasta/La Croix). These typically have 160mg of caffeine, which is high for coffee although not by a large margin. The culture around them seems to encourage much greater consumption though, with oversize cans (e.g. 24oz with over 250mg caffeine) not unusual and many people having multiple drinks a day. It does seem like something about them, perhaps the addition of a great amount of sugar, encourages more consumption. I'm also a little confused by your accusation, since the article discusses a comparative study of two groups, both in a warzone, and finds increased mental health effects in the group with higher caffeine consumption. No one is denying that combat conditions contribute to adverse mental health effects, but the whole point of the article is that these seem to be exacerbated by caffeine use. Sleep deprivation is becoming a real concern in multiple military branches, and I suspect that the mental impact is not due to the caffeine per se but due to the culture around it: consumption of hundreds of mg of caffeine is viewed as an acceptable alternative to sleep. This is definitely also an issue with coffee, but energy drinks seem to be predominant today.
- natuz 8y ago
  (24 oz = 709 ml)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- rdl 8y ago
  I knew the Iraq war was going downhill when in 2004/2005 the DFACs switched from "free unlimited Red Bull" (4-6 per meal, plus whatever you filled pockets with and drank in between) to Rip-Its and a limit of 2 for takeout.
  - gaius 8y ago
    4-6 per meal, plus whatever you filled pockets with and drank in betwee How many is that per day? Like 20??
exabrial 8y ago
And a boat load of refined sugar.
- gaius 8y ago
  This is the problem. I am an endurance athlete and I tried Rockstar but the sugar content just means spike, then crash, then crucially, you are more dehydrated after drinking it than you were before! So you either realize this was a mistake and switch to water (and stick to Powerade in future which has the ideal sugar content for fast absorbing without the aforementioned problems) or chug another Rockstar... you can easily get through several 500ml cans that way. The MilFit/CrossFit group I train with now frequently issues warnings about no energy drinks before big workouts.
tlb 8y ago
It also contains taurine, unlike coffee, which "crosses the blood–brain barrier and has been implicated in a wide array of physiological phenomena including inhibitory neurotransmission, long-term potentiation in the striatum/hippocampus, membrane stabilization, feedback inhibition of neutrophil/macrophage respiratory burst, adipose tissue regulation and possible prevention of obesity, calcium homeostasis, recovery from osmotic shock, protection against glutamate excitotoxicity and prevention of epileptic seizures." [0] "Long-term potentiation in the hippocampus" in conjunction with traumatic stress is plausibly causally related to PTSD. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine
- yholio 8y ago
  Taurine sounds like the perfect cool sounding ingredient that can be safely added with absolutely no effects: "The amounts of guarana, taurine, and ginseng found in popular energy drinks are far below the amounts expected to deliver either therapeutic benefits or adverse events".
  - tlb 8y ago
    "Absolutely no effects" shouldn't be your default assumption. Lots of compounds have been shown to have subtle long-term effects that weren't obvious at first. You have to do epidemiological studies to find problems with compounds that have a negative effect only in certain circumstances, because it probably won't be noticed in clinical trials. The foundational example is thalidomide, which is a harmless sedative except in pregnant women. Clinical trials aren't normally done on pregnant women, and they also aren't done on soldiers in active combat. There may well be no problem, but this is the sort of epidemiological evidence that justifies further study.
gnulinux 8y ago
Caffeine and incredible amounts of sugar.
tptacek 8y ago
According to the story, it's sleep and relaxation deficit that's causing PTSD, not some chemical in the drink. If you deliberately supplement caffeine to maintain an otherwise unsustainable op tempo, the connection is not all that complicated or unreasonable.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"The active ingredient in Red Bull is caffeine." No - it's Taurene (caffeine as well of course) Taurene is a whole different game. Taurene will mess you up long term far more than just caffeine. Taurene has less worse short term effects ... and there doesn't seem to be consensus on long term, but I personally had a serious bout with it messing up my endrocrine. 1 small red bull now and again is enough. Soldiers need to get more sleep, for god's sakes there's guns and lives on the line. Yes, sleep dep training is important, but with live munitions ... my god man.

ethbro 8y ago

+ Sugar

Keyframe 8y ago
Yeah, I thought real kick comes from the high sugar content. I used to consume a lot of sugar, but over time I kind of laid off of sugar. Recently, I drank one monster can. Holy shit - I was buzzed and exhausted after.

stonecraftwolf 8y ago

I don’t know, but I do know caffeine can be a trigger for many people with PTSD. The military is probably not a great place to encourage use of substances that can trigger PTSD episodes, but they do a lot worse to soldiers, so...

saiya-jin 8y ago

Isn't in all red bulls quite a bit of sugar/aspartam? Not a healthy stuff, although it shouldn't cause any PTSD. And what about taurine? Not really very explored substance. Personally I drink similar stuff maybe 2x per year, when I have a long (>1000km) drive ahead. Otherwise wouldn't touch that chemical junk with a 10 foot pole.

paulcole 8y ago
I can’t imagine ingesting chemicals. Do you have any recommended chemical-free foods?
- beached_whale 8y ago
  vacuum
  - jwally 8y ago
    ...something feels unnatural about this
- gaius 8y ago
  It’s pretty clear what people mean when they say chemicals in food, so this pedantry is less impressive than perhaps you intended.

jcrawfordor 8y ago

Red Bull is honestly not that popular in this crowd though, the major energy drinks you see are Monster, Rockstar, and as mentioned, Rip It (really an offbrand of the former two from the maker of Shasta/La Croix). These typically have 160mg of caffeine, which is high for coffee although not by a large margin. The culture around them seems to encourage much greater consumption though, with oversize cans (e.g. 24oz with over 250mg caffeine) not unusual and many people having multiple drinks a day. It does seem like something about them, perhaps the addition of a great amount of sugar, encourages more consumption. I'm also a little confused by your accusation, since the article discusses a comparative study of two groups, both in a warzone, and finds increased mental health effects in the group with higher caffeine consumption. No one is denying that combat conditions contribute to adverse mental health effects, but the whole point of the article is that these seem to be exacerbated by caffeine use. Sleep deprivation is becoming a real concern in multiple military branches, and I suspect that the mental impact is not due to the caffeine per se but due to the culture around it: consumption of hundreds of mg of caffeine is viewed as an acceptable alternative to sleep. This is definitely also an issue with coffee, but energy drinks seem to be predominant today.

natuz 8y ago
(24 oz = 709 ml)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
rdl 8y ago
I knew the Iraq war was going downhill when in 2004/2005 the DFACs switched from "free unlimited Red Bull" (4-6 per meal, plus whatever you filled pockets with and drank in between) to Rip-Its and a limit of 2 for takeout.
- gaius 8y ago
  4-6 per meal, plus whatever you filled pockets with and drank in betwee How many is that per day? Like 20??

exabrial 8y ago

And a boat load of refined sugar.

gaius 8y ago
This is the problem. I am an endurance athlete and I tried Rockstar but the sugar content just means spike, then crash, then crucially, you are more dehydrated after drinking it than you were before! So you either realize this was a mistake and switch to water (and stick to Powerade in future which has the ideal sugar content for fast absorbing without the aforementioned problems) or chug another Rockstar... you can easily get through several 500ml cans that way. The MilFit/CrossFit group I train with now frequently issues warnings about no energy drinks before big workouts.

tlb 8y ago

It also contains taurine, unlike coffee, which "crosses the blood–brain barrier and has been implicated in a wide array of physiological phenomena including inhibitory neurotransmission, long-term potentiation in the striatum/hippocampus, membrane stabilization, feedback inhibition of neutrophil/macrophage respiratory burst, adipose tissue regulation and possible prevention of obesity, calcium homeostasis, recovery from osmotic shock, protection against glutamate excitotoxicity and prevention of epileptic seizures." [0] "Long-term potentiation in the hippocampus" in conjunction with traumatic stress is plausibly causally related to PTSD. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine

yholio 8y ago
Taurine sounds like the perfect cool sounding ingredient that can be safely added with absolutely no effects: "The amounts of guarana, taurine, and ginseng found in popular energy drinks are far below the amounts expected to deliver either therapeutic benefits or adverse events".
- tlb 8y ago
  "Absolutely no effects" shouldn't be your default assumption. Lots of compounds have been shown to have subtle long-term effects that weren't obvious at first. You have to do epidemiological studies to find problems with compounds that have a negative effect only in certain circumstances, because it probably won't be noticed in clinical trials. The foundational example is thalidomide, which is a harmless sedative except in pregnant women. Clinical trials aren't normally done on pregnant women, and they also aren't done on soldiers in active combat. There may well be no problem, but this is the sort of epidemiological evidence that justifies further study.

gnulinux 8y ago

Caffeine and incredible amounts of sugar.

tptacek 8y ago

According to the story, it's sleep and relaxation deficit that's causing PTSD, not some chemical in the drink. If you deliberately supplement caffeine to maintain an otherwise unsustainable op tempo, the connection is not all that complicated or unreasonable.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"The active ingredient in Red Bull is caffeine." No - it's Taurene (caffeine as well of course) Taurene is a whole different game. Taurene will mess you up long term far more than just caffeine. Taurene has less worse short term effects ... and there doesn't seem to be consensus on long term, but I personally had a serious bout with it messing up my endrocrine. 1 small red bull now and again is enough. Soldiers need to get more sleep, for god's sakes there's guns and lives on the line. Yes, sleep dep training is important, but with live munitions ... my god man.