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And with that another bit of whimsy and individual thought dies in our industry. People who push CoCs may be effectively silencing people in the short term but

And with that another bit of whimsy and individual thought dies in our industry. People who push CoCs may be effectively silencing people in the short term but resentment is building. I think we need a new collaboration model that has some immunity to interlopers. I just don’t know what that is yet, but it’s coming. My love for technology is as strong as ever but I never want to be part of a “community” with such draconian social rules as what we’ve seen the past 5 years or so.

eli 8y ago
You're worried about open source projects becoming too welcoming?
- malvosenior 8y ago
  There’s nothing welcoming about forcing project maintainers to do things.
  - krapp 8y ago
    Project maintainers are often forced to conform to style practices, run tests, follow rules about commenting, etc. I don't see why it's so "draconian" to expect maintainers to be civil as well. That used to be considered simple professional courtesy.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      Well, CoC can go much further than just civility in a project, since the CoC cover interaction outside of it. So if you have an unpopular opinion and say it on twitter, it can be used against you in the project.
    - pritambaral 8y ago
      > I don't see why it's so "draconian" to expect maintainers to be civil as well. If only it were just that. > That used to be considered simple professional courtesy. And yet, some people are demanding projects adopt codified sets of rules on what is acceptable, what is unacceptable, what will be tolerated, what will not be tolerated, even what will obligate maintainers to take action or face repercussions themselves. Some CoC activists (especially the "Contributor Covenant" and "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" people) have themselves acted in ways beyond incivility, sometimes even emphatically and proudly, that would violate the very sets of rules they were trying to push on projects. This is a political movement (and I'm not saying that that's bad) that is quite far removed from just asking projects to ask people to be civil, courteous, and professional.
  - eli 8y ago
    Maintainers don't need to be welcomed, they are already there! But it's true that maintainers need to do real work and expend real effort if they want to ensure their project is welcoming to newcomers.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      > Maintainers don't need to be welcomed, they are already there! They are already there, and since they did all of the hard work of getting there and people are using their software for free, they should be treated with the utmost respect. People shouldn't come into their "homes" and start making demands. Also, how do you think we get more maintainers? I assure you it's not by abusing the ones we have. > But it's true that maintainers need to do real work and expend real effort if they want to ensure their project is welcoming to newcomers. If you want to start a project and make this a goal, more power to you. There is a large portion of devs that see this as a non-goal (SQLite doesn't have "newcomer" contributors for instance), and that's totally within their rights and something that should be respected.
  - archagon 8y ago
    Why do you think anyone was forced? What possible threat could someone make against SQLite or Linux?
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      Go on Twitter and check out the lynch mob that came for Hipp. He was absolutely forced into retracting his original CoC.
      - archagon 8y ago
        And what does he have to fear from a Twitter mob, exactly—people who don’t matter to his business on a service he basically never uses?
        malvosenior 8y ago
        It was a mob consisting of people from our industry saying the didn't want to use SQLite anymore (among other things).
        archagon 8y ago
        But that's just not going to happen. SQLite is ubiquitous. There's basically no comparable product. It's embedded in several OSes. People aren't going to drop SQLite just because a parody CoC was posted half a year go, no matter what some loud people on Twitter say.
        malvosenior 8y ago
        I agree with you. I'm wasn't on the receiving end of it though, so I'm not going to judge him for changing his position based on what he saw as real pressure. EDIT: HN won't let me reply to this thread anymore but, I don't think he changed his mind given his own words on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DRichardHipp/status/1054901364181159941 https://twitter.com/DRichardHipp/status/1054901364181159941 "Giving in" seems more accurate than changing his mind.

eli 8y ago

You're worried about open source projects becoming too welcoming?

malvosenior 8y ago
There’s nothing welcoming about forcing project maintainers to do things.
- krapp 8y ago
  Project maintainers are often forced to conform to style practices, run tests, follow rules about commenting, etc. I don't see why it's so "draconian" to expect maintainers to be civil as well. That used to be considered simple professional courtesy.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    Well, CoC can go much further than just civility in a project, since the CoC cover interaction outside of it. So if you have an unpopular opinion and say it on twitter, it can be used against you in the project.
  - pritambaral 8y ago
    > I don't see why it's so "draconian" to expect maintainers to be civil as well. If only it were just that. > That used to be considered simple professional courtesy. And yet, some people are demanding projects adopt codified sets of rules on what is acceptable, what is unacceptable, what will be tolerated, what will not be tolerated, even what will obligate maintainers to take action or face repercussions themselves. Some CoC activists (especially the "Contributor Covenant" and "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" people) have themselves acted in ways beyond incivility, sometimes even emphatically and proudly, that would violate the very sets of rules they were trying to push on projects. This is a political movement (and I'm not saying that that's bad) that is quite far removed from just asking projects to ask people to be civil, courteous, and professional.
- eli 8y ago
  Maintainers don't need to be welcomed, they are already there! But it's true that maintainers need to do real work and expend real effort if they want to ensure their project is welcoming to newcomers.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    > Maintainers don't need to be welcomed, they are already there! They are already there, and since they did all of the hard work of getting there and people are using their software for free, they should be treated with the utmost respect. People shouldn't come into their "homes" and start making demands. Also, how do you think we get more maintainers? I assure you it's not by abusing the ones we have. > But it's true that maintainers need to do real work and expend real effort if they want to ensure their project is welcoming to newcomers. If you want to start a project and make this a goal, more power to you. There is a large portion of devs that see this as a non-goal (SQLite doesn't have "newcomer" contributors for instance), and that's totally within their rights and something that should be respected.
- archagon 8y ago
  Why do you think anyone was forced? What possible threat could someone make against SQLite or Linux?
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    Go on Twitter and check out the lynch mob that came for Hipp. He was absolutely forced into retracting his original CoC.
    - archagon 8y ago
      And what does he have to fear from a Twitter mob, exactly—people who don’t matter to his business on a service he basically never uses?
      - malvosenior 8y ago
        It was a mob consisting of people from our industry saying the didn't want to use SQLite anymore (among other things).
        archagon 8y ago
        But that's just not going to happen. SQLite is ubiquitous. There's basically no comparable product. It's embedded in several OSes. People aren't going to drop SQLite just because a parody CoC was posted half a year go, no matter what some loud people on Twitter say.
        malvosenior 8y ago
        I agree with you. I'm wasn't on the receiving end of it though, so I'm not going to judge him for changing his position based on what he saw as real pressure. EDIT: HN won't let me reply to this thread anymore but, I don't think he changed his mind given his own words on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DRichardHipp/status/1054901364181159941 https://twitter.com/DRichardHipp/status/1054901364181159941 "Giving in" seems more accurate than changing his mind.