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SQLite updated Code of Conduct
- simlevesque 8y agoI'm glad that they removed the god bullshit.
- rmdoss 8y agoHave any info on that?
- eberkund 8y agohttps://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html
- rudedogg 8y agoThe original is linked - https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html
- rmdoss 8y agoThanks. I remember seeing that, but thought was a joke.
- catawbasam 8y agoWhy? It is quite straightforward.
- jankins 8y agoThere was understandable confusion around whether the sentiment of the original CoC was serious or sarcastic. It appears it was serious, based on the new CoC and this tweet: https://twitter.com/drichardhipp/status/1054360847319994368?s=21 https://twitter.com/drichardhipp/status/1054360847319994368?...
- thsowers 8y ago> Love chastity. > Be not addicted to wine. > Hate no one. > Be in dread of hell. > Fear the Day of Judgment. > Attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good you see in yourself. Wow! I had no idea this was part of the original code of conduct
- craftyguy 8y agoAre the SQLite developers monks and nuns?
- rmdoss 8y agoOh, I thought that was added a joke.
- stcredzero 8y agoI once worked at a software company that once had its offices in an old abbey building. (Before I joined.) Apparently, as a condition of the lease, the nuns could come around and proselytize sometimes.
- _iyig 8y agoIn this case, I recommend reading the article instead of just the headline and tops comments (a practice of which I’m often all too guilty). From the original CoC: “The SQLite developers are not monks. None are able to adhere perfectly to this code of conduct. All will fall short. The goal of this code of conduct is not to describe the minimum acceptable behavior below which none transgress, but rather to describe the highest standard of behavior to which all aspire. We grant grace to one another and request forgiveness and promise to amend our ways when we stumble.”
- craftyguy 8y agoI did 'read the article', and it does not include the original CoC text that you quoted. Furthermore: > Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tomohawk 8y agoThere is much to admire in the original https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html Instead of being against something which has inspired many people for so many years and brought so much good, be for something.
- krapp 8y agoReligious doctrine has no place or purpose in the universe of software documentation.
- tomohawk 8y agoSuch as the religious doctrine that you have just stated?
- krapp 8y agoWhat religious doctrine? I never mentioned any God or the doctrine of any religion. But, let me do so... "to everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under Heaven." Software documentation is not the appropriate venue for Christian theology just as a church pulpit wouldn't be the appropriate venue for reading aloud the GPL license.
- sam36 8y agoYou have no right to take away my right to put what ever I darn well feel like in MY documentation. And since when does "church" have to be separate to anything else? Just out of spite, I think if I ever give a sermon, I'll mix in a little bit of GPL comparisons just because.
- krapp 8y ago>You have no right to take away my right to put what ever I darn well feel like in MY documentation. I never claimed any such right, just that purpose and context exist, and that not everything is appropriate for every situation. You have the right to put whatever nonsense you like into your documentation, but that doesn't make it good documentation. You can add song lyrics to a contract if you want to, but doing so doesn't serve the purpose of a contract. >And since when does "church" have to be separate to anything else? Since the Enlightenment, when people began to realize theocracy does more harm than good in the legal, scholarly and scientific realms. >Just out of spite, I think if I ever give a sermon, I'll mix in a little bit of GPL comparisons just because. You can recite GPL comparisons at the pulpit if you like, but "spite just because" is a terrible basis for a sermon. Again, no one is claiming you can't, just that you shouldn't.
- p4bl0 8y agoI don't understand why you are being downvoted. The previous code of ethics of SQLite was a mess that should have nothing to do with this particular or any free software projects.
- the_common_man 8y agoYeah, I too gave information on what the website had previously and am getting downvoted. Not sure why.
- zzo38computer 8y agoI really don't care much this way or other way. Either way, I still use this software, and sometimes post bug reports.
- the_common_man 8y agoIt used to have religious/god related stuff. https://web.archive.org/web/20180315125217/https://sqlite.org/codeofconduct.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180315125217/https://sqlite.or... ``` First of all, love the Lord God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole strength. Then, love your neighbor as yourself. Do not murder. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not covet. Do not bear false witness. Honor all (1 Peter 2:17). Do not do to another what you would not have done to yourself. Deny oneself in order to follow Christ. Chastise the body. Do not become attached to pleasures. Love fasting. Relieve the poor. Clothe the naked. ... ``` Edit: why the downvotes? I am actually providing information on what actually changed. I didn't write the stuff above. This is what used to be on that website.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- _iyig 8y agoYou omit the most important part: “The code of conduct for developers of the SQLite project is the 72 "instruments of good works" from the 6th century Rule of St. Benedict, shown below. This code of conduct has proven its mettle in use by many thousands of communities for 1,500 years, and has served as a baseline for many civil law codes since the time of Charlemagne. The SQLite developers are not monks. None are able to adhere perfectly to this code of conduct. All will fall short. The goal of this code of conduct is not to describe the minimum acceptable behavior below which none transgress, but rather to describe the highest standard of behavior to which all aspire. We grant grace to one another and request forgiveness and promise to amend our ways when we stumble. This code of conduct applies to the SQLite developers only. Everyone is free to use the SQLite source code, object code, and/or documentation without having to agree with the behavioral standards outlined below. You are encouraged to follow these standards as in doing so you will live a happier, healthier, and more productive life. Nevertheless, this is a choice that you must make for yourself, and is not a precondition for using SQLite.” As further explained on the mailing list: “I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community regardless of ones religious proclivities. The only requirement is that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian ethics. Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed. Merely demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.” As a Founder’s Code of Ethics, I think the Code of St. Benedict works quite well. I’m happy with today’s decision.
- lonelyw0lf 8y agoI guess i cannot use SQlite anymore :)
- p4bl0 8y agoWhy is that? Do you feel oppressed by not being allowed to harass other people based on gender/race/religion etc. when contributing to SQLite? Or is it having to be respectful in general?
- lliamander 8y agoThe original CoC never allowed such things to begin with: > Do not bear false witness. > Honor all. > Do not do to another what you would not have done to yourself. > Do not forsake charity. and so on.
- sam36 8y agoWho is being "oppressed"? And since when does some text in a file have any bearing on one's conscious?
- Roritharr 8y agoWith the pressure put on antirez, Linus and now Dwayne Richard Hipp, I'm getting nervous when imagining of falling outside of the "accepted social norms". The web was always a rough place, but it was a place that allowed separate cultures with different standards to develop. Lately it feels like this is being actively demolished, where only places of anonymity (4chan f.e.) or banality (Facebook Comments) are used to discuss contrarian opinions. The biggest indicator that something chilling is happening to me is that I feel obliged to underline that I'm not in favor of the ideas postulated in DRHs previous CoC...
- ocharles 8y agoWhen CoC's exist to foster inclusivity, exactly which "contrarian opinions" are you feeling are being suppressed? That's it's OK to harass or exclude minority groups? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but the purpose of a CoC is to create a constructive and progressive environment. A CoC is project wide, not internet wide. This is not an attack on freedom of speech, but providing a stable environment and refusing to give a platform to those who's views do not align with a project's. And a project choosing what views it wishes to platform is entirely within its rights.
- lliamander 8y ago> And a project choosing what views it wishes to platform is entirely within its rights. Ah, so you are OK with their original CoC, right?
- eli 8y agoThe original CoC was not a code of conduct in any meaningful sense of the word and is not really comparable to this current one.
- thrmsforbfast 8y agoAs a Christian, I don't have any objection to The Rule. As an American who believes in the separation of church and state, I definitely understand and sympathize with the instinct that, although religious laws often provide good moral guidance for secular codes of conduct, the two serve distinct purposes. You don't have to reject the ten commandments to recognize why we need more graularity and detail in actual laws regarding murder. As a developer, I recognize that there are concrete and specific ways in which documents like The Rule fail to meet the pragmatic needs of a code of conduct, including: 1. clearly delineating acceptable from unacceptable behavior 2. establishing a reporting mechanism 3. codifying specific consequences for doing things that were clearly delineated as unacceptable. A perhaps important thing to realize about monkish orders is that they were intrinsically self-selecting; you didn't need to worry about the "spirit" vs. the "letter" of the law. Monks did not need to worry about people misunderstanding ambiguously stated laws (e.g. "love thy neighbor"). The process of joining a monk-hood or a a religion includes an indoctrination/inculcation/instruction into the "spirit" of the law. Sending a pull or posting on a message list is not even remotely similar. I.e., if you want to extend the development community beyond a small a close-knit group who understands each other, then you need something closer to laws than to religious commandments.
- radiator 8y agoThis is sad. It is clear that the SQLite creator's heart was with the previous version of the CoC, and that although the CoC was only obligatory for developers, other people from outside came and forced their politics on the owners of the project.
- archagon 8y agoIn what sense? What kind of power do you suppose they had to do this?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dwaltrip 8y agoAs a developer, the old CoC is a pretty massive turn off for me. Even if I was a Christian, I think it I would still find it quite out of place. I can't think of anything that is gained by attempting to proselytize through the development process of a widely used, very general purpose software project. Perhaps viewing it as "proselytizing" is not exactly right, but it is certainly taking some kind of stand. To be fair, I've never contributed to SQLite. I also don't condone any nasty attacks against the project owners -- that is inexcusable. I'm sure they didn't have bad intentions. But as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
- baud147258 8y agoExcept the old CoC only applied to the (closed) group of SQLite contributors, not users of SQLite (including developers using SQLite in a project)
- scblock 8y agoTo clarify, the previous, and still linked from this page, document is not “some Christian bullshit” that the SQLite founders made up, it is a from a very old Christian text, as explained on the linked page. I do believe that adopting an actual code of conduct is a good move.
- malvosenior 8y agoAnd with that another bit of whimsy and individual thought dies in our industry. People who push CoCs may be effectively silencing people in the short term but resentment is building. I think we need a new collaboration model that has some immunity to interlopers. I just don’t know what that is yet, but it’s coming. My love for technology is as strong as ever but I never want to be part of a “community” with such draconian social rules as what we’ve seen the past 5 years or so.
- eli 8y agoYou're worried about open source projects becoming too welcoming?
- malvosenior 8y agoThere’s nothing welcoming about forcing project maintainers to do things.
- krapp 8y agoProject maintainers are often forced to conform to style practices, run tests, follow rules about commenting, etc. I don't see why it's so "draconian" to expect maintainers to be civil as well. That used to be considered simple professional courtesy.
- baud147258 8y agoWell, CoC can go much further than just civility in a project, since the CoC cover interaction outside of it. So if you have an unpopular opinion and say it on twitter, it can be used against you in the project.
- pritambaral 8y ago> I don't see why it's so "draconian" to expect maintainers to be civil as well. If only it were just that. > That used to be considered simple professional courtesy. And yet, some people are demanding projects adopt codified sets of rules on what is acceptable, what is unacceptable, what will be tolerated, what will not be tolerated, even what will obligate maintainers to take action or face repercussions themselves. Some CoC activists (especially the "Contributor Covenant" and "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" people) have themselves acted in ways beyond incivility, sometimes even emphatically and proudly, that would violate the very sets of rules they were trying to push on projects. This is a political movement (and I'm not saying that that's bad) that is quite far removed from just asking projects to ask people to be civil, courteous, and professional.
- eli 8y agoPleased to see this. I was very disappointed by the previous CoC, which seemed not entirely serious and, in any event, did not address any of the things a modern CoC is supposed to address nor provide any mechanism for enforcement. I'm glad they found a way to keep it around as a "Code of Ethics" in tandem with a meaningful Code of Conduct. I'm sure they knew (and some of the comments here demonstrate) that this would not be universally popular.
- esaym 8y agoI am genuinely curious how having a COC does something like "foster inclusivity"? I mean, you do realize it is just words right? And not just any words, but words that were forced upon the maintainer/project leader to include. Anyone have evidence of pull requests being rejected because the author was a woman or someone from the east? Personally I haven't, and I can guarantee some text in a file isn't going to help any. What we actually have, is the other way around. Time and time again, an author of a project is accused of being racist if they don't have a COC without any evidence at all[0]. How is that OK? Who has the SQLite project offended that warranted people to contact monetary supporters of the SQLite project and try to get them to pull monetary support based on nothing else than they don't have a COC? We must remember that it is the individual that is sovereign, and not any one group or minority. You can divide a finite group of people an infinite number of ways, but eventually what you end up with is an individual. COC's go against this as they are always pushed by a group with a group agenda that is steeped in tribalism. People need to wake up. [0]: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/10/exposing-true-face-of-sjw.html http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/10/exposing-true-face-of-sjw...
- dwaltrip 8y ago> you do realize it is just words right? Words do things... They can have many possible impacts on the world. If you didn't believe this, you wouldn't have written your comment!
- s9w 8y agoI just wish we could keep software free of politics. If anyone honestly thinks this is a harmless little text they're incredible naive. There is less and less software left without these heavy agendas. It's a sad day
- thinkingemote 8y agoI find it noteworthy that a great many comments on social media (and some here) seem to be offensive to the religious nature of the previous CoC and it's creators. And yet many of the CoC that are around prohibit any bad words against a person's religious identity. It's almost as if they are unaware that their own behaviour would be deemed negative within many progressive CoCs.
- krapp 8y agoNo one here is objecting to the SQLite creators' religious identity, only to the relevance or utility of their having added religious language to their software documentation.