9 ms·

I do and will always advise my friends and family to vote by mail in ballot (if allowed).

craftyguy 8y ago
In Oregon, the entire state votes by mail in ballots, which we receive like 2 weeks ahead of election day. This means I can vote when I am not at work, and don't have to miss work to do so. It's amazing, more states should implement this.
- cvwright 8y ago
  I agree, it's very convenient. Especially because you can sit and read through the voter's pamphlet as you make your selections. On the other hand, voting by mail opens up huge opportunities for coercion or vote buying/selling.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > On the other hand, voting by mail opens up huge opportunities for coercion or vote buying/selling. Not any more than any current systems do. You have to sign the ballot, and if the signature does not match what you submitted in your voter registration thing, they kick it back to you. Unless you are insinuating that the USPS mail folks could collect them all and send in forgeries?
    - sp332 8y ago
      You don't sign the ballot. You sign a paper that gets sent along with the ballot. If things are done properly, the person checking your signature doesn't see your vote and the person counting your vote won't see your signature.
      - craftyguy 8y ago
        Yea I wasn't totally accurate in my response. The point is, voter fraud by mail requires accurately forging a LOT of signatures. Alternatively, the state can pay for the return stamp, but will likely have to pass some tax measure to fund it (in Oregon, state budget must be balanced), so in the end voters would still be buying the stamp. This is less efficient since now there would be stamps bought that folks have no intention of using since they drop them off.
        henrikschroder 8y ago
        No need to forge signatures, you just order all your kids and grandkids to vote like you say, or they will be ostracized by the rest of the family. Or you order all your employees to vote like you say, or they will be fired. If they don't snap a pic of a ballot filled out to your liking, out the door they go. Or you just buy the votes of anyone. $50 for a pic of a "correctly" filled out ballot. That scales pretty nicely.
        craftyguy 8y ago
        I see your point, but don't agree that it 'scales pretty nicely' since it would rely on all participants keeping quiet about it, which definitely prevents it from scaling at all since you won't be able to openly advertise you are doing this without drawing fire from election officials.
    - nokcha 8y ago
      The phrase "opportunities for coercion or vote buying/selling" in the above post refers to opportunities for a malefactor to be physically present while a voter is filling out the ballot and coerce/bribe the voter to fill out the ballot a certain way. Voting at a polling place guards against this by requiring that the voter cast a ballot privately, out of the view of anyone else.
  - ridgeguy 8y ago
    I question whether the vote coercion/purchase opportunities opened up by mail voting are actually "huge" compared with in-person voting. But even if so, these opportunities don't scale easily and potential damage is limited. If some malefactor wanted to buy 1 million votes at an average price of $50 each, that's $50 million of somewhat traceable money and 1 million people, some fraction of whom are certain to reveal they were paid. It won't remain a secret, and it will leave numerous evidence trails. Contrast with fully electronic voting fraud - scalable, hard to detect, and (when well-executed) leaves little evidence to support nullifying an election and forcing a do-over.
    - saint_fiasco 8y ago
      There are ways to make it hard to trace. Suppose your boss tells you to vote for his favorite candidate or you're fired. Instead of money changing hands, there will be a threat of money ceasing to change hands, and that's much harder to prove
  - joveian 8y ago
    IIRC, last I checked something like half the states in the US allow you to get a paper ballot ahead of time for no particular reason so in those states vote by mail wouldn't change anything. I would say that vote by mail isn't always the best option depending on circumstances but today in the US there is not much vote buying or coersion and it seems like a clearly less bad option than any of the alternatives considering how they are actually implemented. I would not recommend it for Mexico, which already has widespread vote buying even without being able to verify who voters actually vote for.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    I don't disagree, but considering that everyone has a camera in their pocket at all times -- including in the votig booth -- these days, I wonder if the opportunity gap for coercion is really all that big.
- lalos 8y ago
  How does the stamp work to send it back? Is it free?
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    No, you buy the stamp to mail it in, or you can drop it off at various collection sites (e.g. library).
  - philipkglass 8y ago
    Washington state has had vote-by-mail for everyone for a while now too. This year they made it free to mail back the return envelope, which made a good experience even better.
    - joveian 8y ago
      IMO it should be called voter suppression when this isn't done (as in Oregon) since rural voters are less likely to have convenient drop boxes. Mild voter suppression compared to what some states are doing but still politically motivated voter suppression.
      - craftyguy 8y ago
        Rural voters are likely not strangers to buying a $0.40 (or whatever they cost now) stamp and putting things in the mail, since they almost certainly have to mail other things in (e.g. bills).
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    For California at least, it's free within the US. Though I had to put a stamp on to vote from abroad.
- Cd00d 8y ago
  Access to voting is _so_ Oregon. The rest of us are into voter suppression this year, silly hippies. Seriously, yes, that system is preferred to increasing access and activity in our democracy, but it seems there's a large contingent that feel it's in their party's best interest to not make it easier to vote. I'm sure it's fair to claim that they honestly believe their party in power is for the good of the country, but then everyone feels that way about their desired political trajectories.
  - vvanders 8y ago
    Oh it can still happen, didn't they just "lose" 4500 mail-in ballots over on one of the states earlier this week?
    - sp332 8y ago
      Georgia lost applications, not ballots. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/us/politics/senate-house-elections.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/us/politics/senate-house-... However there was an incident in Arkansas where the Democratic candidate for secretary of state was left off the ballot. https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2018/oct/22/garland-county-shuts-down-early-voting-locations-a/?page=2 https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2018/oct/22/garland-coun...
    - joveian 8y ago
      You might be thinking of Colorado where they somehow failed to notice that a truck with a bunch of ballots to be sent to voters wasn't unloaded at the post office until people started complaining that they didn't get a ballot. This is quite different from losing voted ballots or not recording a vote correctly.
- schwank 8y ago
  As a kid in Michigan I remember my parents waiting in long lines to vote. After 20 years as a voter in Oregon I have to say our system is great. We recently received the voter guide by mail, and will receive our actual ballot shortly. Take your time filling in the scantron circles while you peruse the guide, put it in the anonymity envelope, sign it to attest, drop it at city hall or the library. I work for a major internet company, including on election systems, and yet I still love this paper system. If there is any discrepancy, they just recount. No missed work, no lines, no profiling. I read all the articles about issues with polling stations and all I can think about is systemic disenfranchisement.
  - tomjen3 8y ago
    What is the point of an anonymous envelope if you sign it? What is the point of the envelope if you do not get to drop it of in the letter box? And most importantly, who gets to write what goes into the voter guide?
    - evan_ 8y ago
      There are two envelopes. The outer envelope has your name on it, you sign that and return it. You can mail it in if you like, or drop it at special drop boxes around town (I always do this because I'm prone to waiting to the last minute.) The inner envelope is anonymous. They verify the outer envelope and open it, then pass the inner envelope to a separate area/volunteers to do the counting. The contents of the voter guide are submitted by the candidates. For ballot measures, pro- and con- statements are submitted by sponsors or members of the public. I don't have mine handy but I think they actually print several pro/con statements for each. I'm not sure how unique this is but ballot measures actually have brief statements printed on the ballot explaining what they will actually do, preventing issues where you're like "wait should I vote yes or no on this if I want this thing banned?" > A YES vote will: Instruct the legislature to write a law preventing future taxes on groceries. A NO vote will: not send any recommendation to the legislature.
      - paulhebert 8y ago
- sxcurry 8y ago
  Another Oregon voter here. I just finished filling out my ballot in the privacy of my home, with the voter pamphlet at my side for reference. So simple and sane.
dreamdu5t 8y ago
It's a great option but has the same problem (to smaller degree) as electronic voting machines, that the process is not entirely observable by the public.
- donarb 8y ago
  In Washington State, every county processes mailed in ballots. These offices are required to allow observers to watch the entire counting process. You can even go to the website and watch live video from any number of cameras.
njarboe 8y ago
There is something nice about a person voting in a place with enforced privacy. Families filling out their ballots together on the kitchen table may be fine for most, but for others the boxes they check would be different in a private polling booth. These people are disenfranchised in with mail-in ballots.
- motardo 8y ago
  Exactly this! Voting by mail just means my grandfather gets two votes and my grandmother gets zero.

In Oregon, the entire state votes by mail in ballots, which we receive like 2 weeks ahead of election day. This means I can vote when I am not at work, and don't have to miss work to do so. It's amazing, more states should implement this.

cvwright 8y ago
I agree, it's very convenient. Especially because you can sit and read through the voter's pamphlet as you make your selections. On the other hand, voting by mail opens up huge opportunities for coercion or vote buying/selling.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > On the other hand, voting by mail opens up huge opportunities for coercion or vote buying/selling. Not any more than any current systems do. You have to sign the ballot, and if the signature does not match what you submitted in your voter registration thing, they kick it back to you. Unless you are insinuating that the USPS mail folks could collect them all and send in forgeries?
  - sp332 8y ago
    You don't sign the ballot. You sign a paper that gets sent along with the ballot. If things are done properly, the person checking your signature doesn't see your vote and the person counting your vote won't see your signature.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      Yea I wasn't totally accurate in my response. The point is, voter fraud by mail requires accurately forging a LOT of signatures. Alternatively, the state can pay for the return stamp, but will likely have to pass some tax measure to fund it (in Oregon, state budget must be balanced), so in the end voters would still be buying the stamp. This is less efficient since now there would be stamps bought that folks have no intention of using since they drop them off.
      - henrikschroder 8y ago
        No need to forge signatures, you just order all your kids and grandkids to vote like you say, or they will be ostracized by the rest of the family. Or you order all your employees to vote like you say, or they will be fired. If they don't snap a pic of a ballot filled out to your liking, out the door they go. Or you just buy the votes of anyone. $50 for a pic of a "correctly" filled out ballot. That scales pretty nicely.
        craftyguy 8y ago
        I see your point, but don't agree that it 'scales pretty nicely' since it would rely on all participants keeping quiet about it, which definitely prevents it from scaling at all since you won't be able to openly advertise you are doing this without drawing fire from election officials.
  - nokcha 8y ago
    The phrase "opportunities for coercion or vote buying/selling" in the above post refers to opportunities for a malefactor to be physically present while a voter is filling out the ballot and coerce/bribe the voter to fill out the ballot a certain way. Voting at a polling place guards against this by requiring that the voter cast a ballot privately, out of the view of anyone else.
- ridgeguy 8y ago
  I question whether the vote coercion/purchase opportunities opened up by mail voting are actually "huge" compared with in-person voting. But even if so, these opportunities don't scale easily and potential damage is limited. If some malefactor wanted to buy 1 million votes at an average price of $50 each, that's $50 million of somewhat traceable money and 1 million people, some fraction of whom are certain to reveal they were paid. It won't remain a secret, and it will leave numerous evidence trails. Contrast with fully electronic voting fraud - scalable, hard to detect, and (when well-executed) leaves little evidence to support nullifying an election and forcing a do-over.
  - saint_fiasco 8y ago
    There are ways to make it hard to trace. Suppose your boss tells you to vote for his favorite candidate or you're fired. Instead of money changing hands, there will be a threat of money ceasing to change hands, and that's much harder to prove
- joveian 8y ago
  IIRC, last I checked something like half the states in the US allow you to get a paper ballot ahead of time for no particular reason so in those states vote by mail wouldn't change anything. I would say that vote by mail isn't always the best option depending on circumstances but today in the US there is not much vote buying or coersion and it seems like a clearly less bad option than any of the alternatives considering how they are actually implemented. I would not recommend it for Mexico, which already has widespread vote buying even without being able to verify who voters actually vote for.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  I don't disagree, but considering that everyone has a camera in their pocket at all times -- including in the votig booth -- these days, I wonder if the opportunity gap for coercion is really all that big.
lalos 8y ago
How does the stamp work to send it back? Is it free?
- craftyguy 8y ago
  No, you buy the stamp to mail it in, or you can drop it off at various collection sites (e.g. library).
- philipkglass 8y ago
  Washington state has had vote-by-mail for everyone for a while now too. This year they made it free to mail back the return envelope, which made a good experience even better.
  - joveian 8y ago
    IMO it should be called voter suppression when this isn't done (as in Oregon) since rural voters are less likely to have convenient drop boxes. Mild voter suppression compared to what some states are doing but still politically motivated voter suppression.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      Rural voters are likely not strangers to buying a $0.40 (or whatever they cost now) stamp and putting things in the mail, since they almost certainly have to mail other things in (e.g. bills).
- CalRobert 8y ago
  For California at least, it's free within the US. Though I had to put a stamp on to vote from abroad.
Cd00d 8y ago
Access to voting is _so_ Oregon. The rest of us are into voter suppression this year, silly hippies. Seriously, yes, that system is preferred to increasing access and activity in our democracy, but it seems there's a large contingent that feel it's in their party's best interest to not make it easier to vote. I'm sure it's fair to claim that they honestly believe their party in power is for the good of the country, but then everyone feels that way about their desired political trajectories.
- vvanders 8y ago
  Oh it can still happen, didn't they just "lose" 4500 mail-in ballots over on one of the states earlier this week?
  - sp332 8y ago
    Georgia lost applications, not ballots. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/us/politics/senate-house-elections.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/us/politics/senate-house-... However there was an incident in Arkansas where the Democratic candidate for secretary of state was left off the ballot. https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2018/oct/22/garland-county-shuts-down-early-voting-locations-a/?page=2 https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2018/oct/22/garland-coun...
  - joveian 8y ago
    You might be thinking of Colorado where they somehow failed to notice that a truck with a bunch of ballots to be sent to voters wasn't unloaded at the post office until people started complaining that they didn't get a ballot. This is quite different from losing voted ballots or not recording a vote correctly.
schwank 8y ago
As a kid in Michigan I remember my parents waiting in long lines to vote. After 20 years as a voter in Oregon I have to say our system is great. We recently received the voter guide by mail, and will receive our actual ballot shortly. Take your time filling in the scantron circles while you peruse the guide, put it in the anonymity envelope, sign it to attest, drop it at city hall or the library. I work for a major internet company, including on election systems, and yet I still love this paper system. If there is any discrepancy, they just recount. No missed work, no lines, no profiling. I read all the articles about issues with polling stations and all I can think about is systemic disenfranchisement.
- tomjen3 8y ago
  What is the point of an anonymous envelope if you sign it? What is the point of the envelope if you do not get to drop it of in the letter box? And most importantly, who gets to write what goes into the voter guide?
  - evan_ 8y ago
    There are two envelopes. The outer envelope has your name on it, you sign that and return it. You can mail it in if you like, or drop it at special drop boxes around town (I always do this because I'm prone to waiting to the last minute.) The inner envelope is anonymous. They verify the outer envelope and open it, then pass the inner envelope to a separate area/volunteers to do the counting. The contents of the voter guide are submitted by the candidates. For ballot measures, pro- and con- statements are submitted by sponsors or members of the public. I don't have mine handy but I think they actually print several pro/con statements for each. I'm not sure how unique this is but ballot measures actually have brief statements printed on the ballot explaining what they will actually do, preventing issues where you're like "wait should I vote yes or no on this if I want this thing banned?" > A YES vote will: Instruct the legislature to write a law preventing future taxes on groceries. A NO vote will: not send any recommendation to the legislature.
    - paulhebert 8y ago
sxcurry 8y ago
Another Oregon voter here. I just finished filling out my ballot in the privacy of my home, with the voter pamphlet at my side for reference. So simple and sane.

dreamdu5t 8y ago

It's a great option but has the same problem (to smaller degree) as electronic voting machines, that the process is not entirely observable by the public.

donarb 8y ago
In Washington State, every county processes mailed in ballots. These offices are required to allow observers to watch the entire counting process. You can even go to the website and watch live video from any number of cameras.

njarboe 8y ago

There is something nice about a person voting in a place with enforced privacy. Families filling out their ballots together on the kitchen table may be fine for most, but for others the boxes they check would be different in a private polling booth. These people are disenfranchised in with mail-in ballots.

motardo 8y ago
Exactly this! Voting by mail just means my grandfather gets two votes and my grandmother gets zero.