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Right, I'm not fully convinced either way, but it seems to me that if you're capable of understanding the arguments against something, you're capable of startin

Right, I'm not fully convinced either way, but it seems to me that if you're capable of understanding the arguments against something, you're capable of starting to take steps against it. This doesn't mean simply wishing an iron willpower on yourself, but one thing that worked wonders for me is modifying my environment to put barriers between me and bad things. I come from a family with a history of addiction and mental illness, and I think my personality can be a bit addictive along a variety of axes, but I consider my interactions with a host of addictive things (drugs, unhealthy food, screens, etc) to be pretty healthy. I know I have a sweet tooth and enjoy the occasional toke, so I don't keep junk food in the house; if I want anything unhealthier than cottage cheese, I can walk my high ass down to the store and get it. There are plenty of apps and extensions to limit screen time: zenscreen is good for mobile, feed eradicator for Facebook, blocksite for Reddit et al, YouTube has a setting to remind you to take a break after N minutes of watching, etc etc etc. I don't have any particular tricks for drugs, but I never developed the caffeine addiction most have because it was beyond crazy to me to start your day with feeding a physical and psychological addiction. [1]. I get that this pattern-matches to a hyper-individualist "external forces don't matter" take on the world, and it's not. But I think of it like defensive driving: feel free to dvocate for external changes and blame external forces, but when it comes down to it, you are the person who has the most invested in yourself and the person with the most power to change your habits. HN's historical fatalist consensus of all-powerful algorithms before which we can only cower in fear seems hugely counter-productive, and honestly a little silly. [1] Caffeine is a particularly easy physical addiction to kick, given how brief and mild the withdrawal is. More powerfully physically addictive drugs like tobacco or heroin are in another category which I've avoided entirely, so I'm making no claims about them.

addicted 8y ago
This is not sufficient. I know that eating out every day isn't as good for me as cooking at home would probably be, but the benefits still outweigh the downsides for me, so I eat out more often than I cook at home. No one is gonna hold that against me. All these algorithms need to convince someone who is aware of their downsides is that the upsides are worth it. Instagram needs to convince someone that, sure Instagram isn't good for their mental health, but staying off Instagram means they will have less friends which will be worse for them. This will almost certainly work for a teenager. Other stuff may work for an adult. And with the way social networks work, something like this can simply become a self fulfilling prophecy.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  Well sure; if the tradeoff is worth it for them, then they _shouldn't_ be doing it less. I'm pretty happy with the amount of junk food I eat and drugs that I do and screen time I have, because IMO the benefits outweigh the costs. It's possible for people to be bad at calculating these costs, but that doesn't require a motivated third party and is not what we're discussing here. This thread is about algorithms exploiting weakness to make you do things you think are bad.

addicted 8y ago

This is not sufficient. I know that eating out every day isn't as good for me as cooking at home would probably be, but the benefits still outweigh the downsides for me, so I eat out more often than I cook at home. No one is gonna hold that against me. All these algorithms need to convince someone who is aware of their downsides is that the upsides are worth it. Instagram needs to convince someone that, sure Instagram isn't good for their mental health, but staying off Instagram means they will have less friends which will be worse for them. This will almost certainly work for a teenager. Other stuff may work for an adult. And with the way social networks work, something like this can simply become a self fulfilling prophecy.

wutbrodo 8y ago
Well sure; if the tradeoff is worth it for them, then they _shouldn't_ be doing it less. I'm pretty happy with the amount of junk food I eat and drugs that I do and screen time I have, because IMO the benefits outweigh the costs. It's possible for people to be bad at calculating these costs, but that doesn't require a motivated third party and is not what we're discussing here. This thread is about algorithms exploiting weakness to make you do things you think are bad.