5 ms·

This is the conclusion that a lot of people on HN seem to be reaching. Now how do we go about filtering out the 'bad screen' while allowing the 'good screen?'

pesfandiar 8y ago
One good way to distinguish the two is whether or not it's pure consumption/entertainment or production/learning? I realize at times it may not be easy to do (e.g. watching cartoons or playing games that teach children something).
- mindslight 8y ago
  I mentioned kodi for a reason. I've definitely binged on seasons of shows using kodi (or mplayer), but it feels relatively deliberate. I don't support Netflix et al, so I don't know specifically how many dark patterns they've implemented to "increase engagement" or w/e, but I do know the setup is there. And obviously if you're using Youtube for "TV time", then game over.
  - kitsunesoba 8y ago
    I’ve used Netflix alongside a Plex setup for years now, and if Netflix is employing any dark patterns they certainly aren’t effective on me. My usage of Netflix is just as random and deliberate as my Plex usage, and once I’m done watching an episode or binging on a series for the day I don’t find myself looking for more. YouTube used to be a lot more dangerous with their sidebar recommendations years ago but they changed the algorithm at some point and ever since it’s become very rare that I click on anything there.
  - wott 8y ago
    The dark pattern is series themselves. 1. They are massively produced and have replaced many other programs. There is always new content available, you can spend your life watching 3 new episodes an evening. 2. They are in fact not series any more, but serials. Each episode of a series has an independent storyline and comes to a conclusion; episodes can mostly be watched in random order, you can miss a broadcast, it doesn't matter, you can watch a later episodes without any problem. Serials are a single long storyline split in episodes: you can't miss one, let alone two episodes, otherwise you're lost; and they can use cliffhangers! and of course they do. The hooking is much much bigger for serials than for series, you always end up begging for more. Even when it starts as a series, they quickly inject enough serials elements to turn it into a serial in disguise.
    - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
      "The dark pattern is series themselves." So, making good content that happens to span multiple episodes? That's the kind of engagement I really don't have an issue with. However—Netflix has autoplay next episode turned on by default, and if you find the setting to turn it off, each episode ends with a large screen prompting you to PLEASE click to play the next episode. As someone who really likes episodes to end cleanly and give me time to think, this REALLY annoys me.
      - wott 8y ago
        > So, making good content that happens to span multiple episodes? That's the kind of engagement I really don't have an issue with. No, it doesn't mean "good content" at all (it can accidentally be good content, but that's not usually the case). It means the ability to use tricks to get you hooked, to have you craving for more, and to trigger binge behaviour, no matter what the content is. There was no such binge consumption before, and there was no request for new content all the time, you could watch a random episode of a 10 or 20 years old series and you were fine with it. On the contrary, with serials the writers/directors don't have to think about setting up a story that can start, develop and end in 42 minutes, which requires crafting. They can patch whichever background story (love, treason, ...) that we have seen 800 times already, and activate it when they have no other idea on where the actual story should go. Even 'better', they activate it just 30 seconds before the end of the episode, so that, dammit! I wanted to stop there and go to sleep / do something else but I click on the next episode, and there we go, again, and again. > However—Netflix has autoplay next episode turned on by default, and if you find the setting to turn it off, each episode ends with a large screen prompting you to PLEASE click to play the next episode. As someone who really likes episodes to end cleanly and give me time to think, this REALLY annoys me. Well yeah, because the point of serials is to have people binge watch them, so the most common action is to watch an episode after another after another, and the publisher wants to facilitate this and makes you binge watch as much as possible. He doesn't care if after watching 3 episodes you don't even remember the 1st one, he doesn't want to have clear ending, clear breaks that would give you the possibility to reflect and digest the episode, the point is to keep the flow going non-stop and occupy as much of your time as possible.
DelightOne 8y ago
This is EXACTLY what Apple’s “Screen Time” is built for.
cirgue 8y ago
I think the easiest heuristic is this: is the platform a delivery mechanism for advertising? If so, bad screen.
- astrodust 8y ago
  Stack Overflow, hast thou forsaken me?
  - cirgue 8y ago
    I wouldn’t characterize stack overflow as a delivery mechanism for ads in the same way that, say, YouTube is. Content creators on stack overflow aren’t there to make money by driving page views. (Rather, the mechanism driving page views is more utility than sensation)
    - astrodust 8y ago
      That's a good point. You can't click "monetize" on your answers, but if you could you'd be right in that zone.
    - wutbrodo 8y ago
      I don't know how useful an epicycle in your model this is. Content creators on Facebook aren't there to make money by driving page views either, and yet I assume you wouldn't say that Facebook is "good", by the standard were discussing.
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        At the same time, SO is hardly optimizing for return visits to SO in the same way that I would assume that Facebook is optimizing their platform for return visits and engagement to Facebook.
        powercf 8y ago
        On the other hand, every time I go to SO to find a solution to problem ${X}, I find very interesting (to me) questions on the right, enticing me to waste time reading them. They are making an effort to keep people on the Stack Exchange sites.
mindslight 8y ago
At a very low level, I think it has to do with the motivations of whomever controls the code. At a very basic level, pitting your human brain directly against someone else's computer is a setup for defeat. At the high level, I think we will see a more divergence / degeneralization of devices [0]. Your "phone" should be a separate item from your social media procrasturbation device. We all want some form of the latter, just not buzzing in our pocket. In the middle? That's the (zero) million dollar question. (I hope the next wave will be via repurposing older hardware with a Free and surveillance-resistant operating environment, but my fingers are crossed!)
wellpast 8y ago
A mobile, goes-with-you screen is the bad screen. The good screen is the one at a desk that you sit at to do work with conscious intention.
cwkoss 8y ago
Is there a "Stallman" hosts file, that blocks all sites that do not have incredibly free software? I feel like dumping a kid into the deep end of linux box with access some so-so games installed and letting them figure out how to make things work is extremely valuable learning experience. It's the "passive" screen behaviors that are harmful IMO.
- cirgue 8y ago
  Sample of one, but I would be willing to pay roughly $20 per year for this service if it were updated a few times a month.
- tlear 8y ago
  This is my plan for when my kids grow older. Linux box. Some basic games.. Python/ruby/lua interpreter, even better games written in those languages. It will have connection but iptables will block everything. If they ever figure out how to disable that they are ready :) Man pages and other docs will be there for them to enjoy. I will also buy some printed books for python, shell etc They gona fucking hate me, but I am not feeding them equivalent of cocaine.
  - cuddlecake 8y ago
    Eh. I feel like you should rather buy them stuff that they are genuinely interested in, instead of trying to give them shell skills. I agree that computer knowledge is a must, but I think time is spent more wisely if they are aware of the concepts and how mundane they actually are. (I.e., programming and scripts are not arcane stuff)
intended 8y ago
I see a consensus that Anything on a screen is bad, whats mitigated the issue to the point that people are OK with screens?
ehonda 8y ago
I grew up on old computers with old games, and that is what my kids shall also be stuck with for a while also. Mwahaha.

pesfandiar 8y ago

One good way to distinguish the two is whether or not it's pure consumption/entertainment or production/learning? I realize at times it may not be easy to do (e.g. watching cartoons or playing games that teach children something).

mindslight 8y ago
I mentioned kodi for a reason. I've definitely binged on seasons of shows using kodi (or mplayer), but it feels relatively deliberate. I don't support Netflix et al, so I don't know specifically how many dark patterns they've implemented to "increase engagement" or w/e, but I do know the setup is there. And obviously if you're using Youtube for "TV time", then game over.
- kitsunesoba 8y ago
  I’ve used Netflix alongside a Plex setup for years now, and if Netflix is employing any dark patterns they certainly aren’t effective on me. My usage of Netflix is just as random and deliberate as my Plex usage, and once I’m done watching an episode or binging on a series for the day I don’t find myself looking for more. YouTube used to be a lot more dangerous with their sidebar recommendations years ago but they changed the algorithm at some point and ever since it’s become very rare that I click on anything there.
- wott 8y ago
  The dark pattern is series themselves. 1. They are massively produced and have replaced many other programs. There is always new content available, you can spend your life watching 3 new episodes an evening. 2. They are in fact not series any more, but serials. Each episode of a series has an independent storyline and comes to a conclusion; episodes can mostly be watched in random order, you can miss a broadcast, it doesn't matter, you can watch a later episodes without any problem. Serials are a single long storyline split in episodes: you can't miss one, let alone two episodes, otherwise you're lost; and they can use cliffhangers! and of course they do. The hooking is much much bigger for serials than for series, you always end up begging for more. Even when it starts as a series, they quickly inject enough serials elements to turn it into a serial in disguise.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    "The dark pattern is series themselves." So, making good content that happens to span multiple episodes? That's the kind of engagement I really don't have an issue with. However—Netflix has autoplay next episode turned on by default, and if you find the setting to turn it off, each episode ends with a large screen prompting you to PLEASE click to play the next episode. As someone who really likes episodes to end cleanly and give me time to think, this REALLY annoys me.
    - wott 8y ago
      > So, making good content that happens to span multiple episodes? That's the kind of engagement I really don't have an issue with. No, it doesn't mean "good content" at all (it can accidentally be good content, but that's not usually the case). It means the ability to use tricks to get you hooked, to have you craving for more, and to trigger binge behaviour, no matter what the content is. There was no such binge consumption before, and there was no request for new content all the time, you could watch a random episode of a 10 or 20 years old series and you were fine with it. On the contrary, with serials the writers/directors don't have to think about setting up a story that can start, develop and end in 42 minutes, which requires crafting. They can patch whichever background story (love, treason, ...) that we have seen 800 times already, and activate it when they have no other idea on where the actual story should go. Even 'better', they activate it just 30 seconds before the end of the episode, so that, dammit! I wanted to stop there and go to sleep / do something else but I click on the next episode, and there we go, again, and again. > However—Netflix has autoplay next episode turned on by default, and if you find the setting to turn it off, each episode ends with a large screen prompting you to PLEASE click to play the next episode. As someone who really likes episodes to end cleanly and give me time to think, this REALLY annoys me. Well yeah, because the point of serials is to have people binge watch them, so the most common action is to watch an episode after another after another, and the publisher wants to facilitate this and makes you binge watch as much as possible. He doesn't care if after watching 3 episodes you don't even remember the 1st one, he doesn't want to have clear ending, clear breaks that would give you the possibility to reflect and digest the episode, the point is to keep the flow going non-stop and occupy as much of your time as possible.

DelightOne 8y ago

This is EXACTLY what Apple’s “Screen Time” is built for.

cirgue 8y ago

I think the easiest heuristic is this: is the platform a delivery mechanism for advertising? If so, bad screen.

astrodust 8y ago
Stack Overflow, hast thou forsaken me?
- cirgue 8y ago
  I wouldn’t characterize stack overflow as a delivery mechanism for ads in the same way that, say, YouTube is. Content creators on stack overflow aren’t there to make money by driving page views. (Rather, the mechanism driving page views is more utility than sensation)
  - astrodust 8y ago
    That's a good point. You can't click "monetize" on your answers, but if you could you'd be right in that zone.
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    I don't know how useful an epicycle in your model this is. Content creators on Facebook aren't there to make money by driving page views either, and yet I assume you wouldn't say that Facebook is "good", by the standard were discussing.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      At the same time, SO is hardly optimizing for return visits to SO in the same way that I would assume that Facebook is optimizing their platform for return visits and engagement to Facebook.
      - powercf 8y ago
        On the other hand, every time I go to SO to find a solution to problem ${X}, I find very interesting (to me) questions on the right, enticing me to waste time reading them. They are making an effort to keep people on the Stack Exchange sites.

mindslight 8y ago

At a very low level, I think it has to do with the motivations of whomever controls the code. At a very basic level, pitting your human brain directly against someone else's computer is a setup for defeat. At the high level, I think we will see a more divergence / degeneralization of devices [0]. Your "phone" should be a separate item from your social media procrasturbation device. We all want some form of the latter, just not buzzing in our pocket. In the middle? That's the (zero) million dollar question. (I hope the next wave will be via repurposing older hardware with a Free and surveillance-resistant operating environment, but my fingers are crossed!)

wellpast 8y ago

A mobile, goes-with-you screen is the bad screen. The good screen is the one at a desk that you sit at to do work with conscious intention.

cwkoss 8y ago

Is there a "Stallman" hosts file, that blocks all sites that do not have incredibly free software? I feel like dumping a kid into the deep end of linux box with access some so-so games installed and letting them figure out how to make things work is extremely valuable learning experience. It's the "passive" screen behaviors that are harmful IMO.

cirgue 8y ago
Sample of one, but I would be willing to pay roughly $20 per year for this service if it were updated a few times a month.
tlear 8y ago
This is my plan for when my kids grow older. Linux box. Some basic games.. Python/ruby/lua interpreter, even better games written in those languages. It will have connection but iptables will block everything. If they ever figure out how to disable that they are ready :) Man pages and other docs will be there for them to enjoy. I will also buy some printed books for python, shell etc They gona fucking hate me, but I am not feeding them equivalent of cocaine.
- cuddlecake 8y ago
  Eh. I feel like you should rather buy them stuff that they are genuinely interested in, instead of trying to give them shell skills. I agree that computer knowledge is a must, but I think time is spent more wisely if they are aware of the concepts and how mundane they actually are. (I.e., programming and scripts are not arcane stuff)

intended 8y ago

I see a consensus that Anything on a screen is bad, whats mitigated the issue to the point that people are OK with screens?

ehonda 8y ago

I grew up on old computers with old games, and that is what my kids shall also be stuck with for a while also. Mwahaha.