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I'm not a data scientist nor a psychologist nor an addiction expert nor ... But I've played some games. I am 137% confident that some form of "level up" (rogue

I'm not a data scientist nor a psychologist nor an addiction expert nor ... But I've played some games. I am 137% confident that some form of "level up" (roguelikes, MMOs, MOBAs, FTL) is an extremely strong addiction factor. League of Legends, that free game whose net worth is among the highest of all time. In real life, you study->grades->job->promote->takeoverworld. Or liftweights->liftmoreweights->liftmoreweights. Or climbmountain->climbhighermountain... In games, you do that in 1/100 the time and effort. Tap a few buttons and "you win!!!!" A sweeping statement to the effect of "people don't understand addiction" is basically malicious and I accuse you of being the inventor of gamification or one of their PR folk.

andrewla 8y ago
> But I've played some games. I am 137% confident that some form of "level up" ... is an extremely strong addiction factor. Try playing more unsuccessful games. You'll find that most boring, unaddictive, terrible games that you'll never play more than once have the same leveling up mechanic.
- whycombinater 8y ago
  Well sure, we can say there's a prerequisite amount of fun to be had in the first place. Addiction is for pleasure not pain, at least for the average person. Something must not be so off-putting that you don't have a chance to get addicted. For example, a cigarette that caught your mouth on fire would probably not be smoked again. The fact that some (or even most, may be your point) games set your mouth on fire does not mean the addiction factor isn't there. It just means they're more boring than they are addictive in that critical early stage.
  - andrewla 8y ago
    So we're going to no-true-scotsman our way out of this? Nothing is binary; I'm not going to say "either leveling helps a game all the time or it doesn't". Sometimes leveling-up mechanics help a game, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it alienates one set of users and attracts another, and there's no magic formula for when it helps and when it doesn't, and the nature of the leveling-up mechanic itself and how fun that is can vary in effectiveness dramatically. It's like having the user's avatar wear a funny hat.
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  I'd say that the classic "Cow Clicker" game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker) is a strong counterpoint to what you're suggesting. Meant to be a satire with essentially zero gameplay, the author was surprised when it gained a dedicated following. There is just something about the "Skinner box"-style of frequent microrewards in games that scratches an itch in the human psyche.
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    I think cow clicker had novelty and the empty room psych on its side as well. Humans tend to obsess upon things which seem to have a purpose but no obvious one. Nobody bats an eye at the same tree used hundreds of times of a plot important but a single beggar with grey rags instead of brown? They must be more important somehow! Well before then players of the original Diablo were obsessively clicking cows because of rumors and belief that there had to be something to the cow.

andrewla 8y ago

> But I've played some games. I am 137% confident that some form of "level up" ... is an extremely strong addiction factor. Try playing more unsuccessful games. You'll find that most boring, unaddictive, terrible games that you'll never play more than once have the same leveling up mechanic.

whycombinater 8y ago
Well sure, we can say there's a prerequisite amount of fun to be had in the first place. Addiction is for pleasure not pain, at least for the average person. Something must not be so off-putting that you don't have a chance to get addicted. For example, a cigarette that caught your mouth on fire would probably not be smoked again. The fact that some (or even most, may be your point) games set your mouth on fire does not mean the addiction factor isn't there. It just means they're more boring than they are addictive in that critical early stage.
- andrewla 8y ago
  So we're going to no-true-scotsman our way out of this? Nothing is binary; I'm not going to say "either leveling helps a game all the time or it doesn't". Sometimes leveling-up mechanics help a game, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it alienates one set of users and attracts another, and there's no magic formula for when it helps and when it doesn't, and the nature of the leveling-up mechanic itself and how fun that is can vary in effectiveness dramatically. It's like having the user's avatar wear a funny hat.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
I'd say that the classic "Cow Clicker" game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker) is a strong counterpoint to what you're suggesting. Meant to be a satire with essentially zero gameplay, the author was surprised when it gained a dedicated following. There is just something about the "Skinner box"-style of frequent microrewards in games that scratches an itch in the human psyche.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  I think cow clicker had novelty and the empty room psych on its side as well. Humans tend to obsess upon things which seem to have a purpose but no obvious one. Nobody bats an eye at the same tree used hundreds of times of a plot important but a single beggar with grey rags instead of brown? They must be more important somehow! Well before then players of the original Diablo were obsessively clicking cows because of rumors and belief that there had to be something to the cow.