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"A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all know this." Hell, I'd argue that many 40-50 year old brains clearly don't

"A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all know this." Hell, I'd argue that many 40-50 year old brains clearly don't stand a chance against a trained data scientist.

jackhack 8y ago
That's correct -- it's adults too. And the odds are against the average person. But I must point out it's not just data scientists we are up against -- it's psychologists, psychiatrists and medical doctors, addiction experts, experts in gaming theory, etc. All are employed in order to help make software and devices more "compelling". Remember when they used to ask how "sticky" is the app? Careful timing of rewards, the use of color and sound, a/b testing on phrasing, email&text reminders, alerts, etc all work to keep you clicking like a trained circus animal. Look, these people are not working to protect you. They're working to create addictions and deepen existing ones. Frankly I think the medical types should lose their licenses for violation of the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm" indeed. Making devices and software more ADDICTIVE, deliberately creating and encouraging mental illness (addiction) is a disgraceful violation of this oath. This is an open secret in the video game world, to the point that some COUNTRIES are banning things like 'loot boxes' because they are naked gambling. The problem began when users became the product being sold. Now the companies feel that they have a right to your mind and eyes, and are not above fostering or even creating clinical addiction to ensure they have access.
- baybal2 8y ago
  A repost from half year ago: I lived in Russia during the time when slot machines were literally standing in the open on the streets, and yes, mentally infirm people were wasting themselves on them. Normal people did not. It requires one to completely lack logic reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a slot machine is to waste his or her time and money. The same way, it requires a particular lack of basic logical reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a smartphone app throwing 20 bling bling popups per second on you isn't different. You don't need to be a genius to understand that clickfarming app must be removed, and to do so. My former high school classmate who did not manage to leave Russia is running a typical "smartphone fixer" kiosk. He said few years ago that the most common request he gets from people is to "remove Google nagware and lock, block or delete Google Pay" so their child will never ever buy anything "in that Internet thing" At least Chinese and Russian parents understood long ago that Google's business is all about "pocket slot machines (this is how people really call smartphones there)." Why wouldn't American parents do that too?
  - nulldata 8y ago
    The problem is that it's not the "clickfarming" apps that are the real danger for the majority of people, I'd argue it's the endless algorithmically tailored content and social media streams most of us consume. The ones that fill our every - otherwise - idle moment with something to distract us with.
    - baybal2 8y ago
      Isn't it the same thing in nature? That is also a part of the same click/impression economy.
    - heurist 8y ago
      I spend at least as much time on HN as Facebook these days. (My relationship with HN is fine but my relationship with my phone is not as healthy as I feel it should be.) I think the problem is related to the fleeting mental rewards of surprising information, not any particular application. Perhaps the product of all available applications.
  - trvz 8y ago
    In your own words: lack of logical reasoning?
    - baybal2 8y ago
      People going to casino with a genuine belief that they will win. Casino — a business specifically mathematically engineered to make sure that nobody wins against a casino, to maximize your losses, and to make money from it. By the very definition, nobody "wins" against it. Yet, some people still come and play. Same thing with google pocket slot machine — the very reason they link the game to your bank account is to milk money from you, or god forbid, your children.
piyh 8y ago
As a person who wants to move from analyst to data scientist, this makes me aware I should probably take some techno ethics as well as learning stuff like R and analytics
Benjammer 8y ago
Don't stop there... I'd argue a prime-of-their-life 34 year old _data scientist_ doesn't stand a change _against their own algorithms_ if they immerse themselves. It's addiction. We need to stop acting like it is "weak-minded" people (children is a dog-whistle for this) who are susceptible to tech addiction. The idea of "standing a chance" is literally like saying you can consciously control your dopamine receptors to actively limit dopamine uptake in your brain.
- kurthr 8y ago
  Bingo (anecdata)... a few years ago I spent the last 15min of a flight into SFO talking to a lady (who had been playing Bejeweled for 4 hours straight) about using touchscreens so long (it's my job). She mentioned how shaky she gets when she has to stop playing... I asked what she did... a game designer at Zynga.
  - usrusr 8y ago
    More anecdata: we're all here, right?
    - drb91 8y ago
      Painful but accurate.
- mitko 8y ago
  Can confirm... I am a 31 year old _data scientist_ who worked on these kind of algorithms, saw the metrics, and tweaked the algorithms to increase these metrics. I got addicted and it is harder to develop a healthy relationship with my phone/social media/youtube than it is with caffeine (I quit it!) or alcohol (I take a 1-2 month long break every year and rarely have more than 1 drink).
- jjeaff 8y ago
  You can't control your dopamine uptake, but you can certainly control your actions. Especially when you recognize what is happening. If I see myself spending too much time on my phone, for instance, I'll put it away for a while.

jackhack 8y ago

That's correct -- it's adults too. And the odds are against the average person. But I must point out it's not just data scientists we are up against -- it's psychologists, psychiatrists and medical doctors, addiction experts, experts in gaming theory, etc. All are employed in order to help make software and devices more "compelling". Remember when they used to ask how "sticky" is the app? Careful timing of rewards, the use of color and sound, a/b testing on phrasing, email&text reminders, alerts, etc all work to keep you clicking like a trained circus animal. Look, these people are not working to protect you. They're working to create addictions and deepen existing ones. Frankly I think the medical types should lose their licenses for violation of the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm" indeed. Making devices and software more ADDICTIVE, deliberately creating and encouraging mental illness (addiction) is a disgraceful violation of this oath. This is an open secret in the video game world, to the point that some COUNTRIES are banning things like 'loot boxes' because they are naked gambling. The problem began when users became the product being sold. Now the companies feel that they have a right to your mind and eyes, and are not above fostering or even creating clinical addiction to ensure they have access.

baybal2 8y ago
A repost from half year ago: I lived in Russia during the time when slot machines were literally standing in the open on the streets, and yes, mentally infirm people were wasting themselves on them. Normal people did not. It requires one to completely lack logic reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a slot machine is to waste his or her time and money. The same way, it requires a particular lack of basic logical reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a smartphone app throwing 20 bling bling popups per second on you isn't different. You don't need to be a genius to understand that clickfarming app must be removed, and to do so. My former high school classmate who did not manage to leave Russia is running a typical "smartphone fixer" kiosk. He said few years ago that the most common request he gets from people is to "remove Google nagware and lock, block or delete Google Pay" so their child will never ever buy anything "in that Internet thing" At least Chinese and Russian parents understood long ago that Google's business is all about "pocket slot machines (this is how people really call smartphones there)." Why wouldn't American parents do that too?
- nulldata 8y ago
  The problem is that it's not the "clickfarming" apps that are the real danger for the majority of people, I'd argue it's the endless algorithmically tailored content and social media streams most of us consume. The ones that fill our every - otherwise - idle moment with something to distract us with.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Isn't it the same thing in nature? That is also a part of the same click/impression economy.
  - heurist 8y ago
    I spend at least as much time on HN as Facebook these days. (My relationship with HN is fine but my relationship with my phone is not as healthy as I feel it should be.) I think the problem is related to the fleeting mental rewards of surprising information, not any particular application. Perhaps the product of all available applications.
- trvz 8y ago
  In your own words: lack of logical reasoning?
  - baybal2 8y ago
    People going to casino with a genuine belief that they will win. Casino — a business specifically mathematically engineered to make sure that nobody wins against a casino, to maximize your losses, and to make money from it. By the very definition, nobody "wins" against it. Yet, some people still come and play. Same thing with google pocket slot machine — the very reason they link the game to your bank account is to milk money from you, or god forbid, your children.

piyh 8y ago

As a person who wants to move from analyst to data scientist, this makes me aware I should probably take some techno ethics as well as learning stuff like R and analytics

Benjammer 8y ago

Don't stop there... I'd argue a prime-of-their-life 34 year old _data scientist_ doesn't stand a change _against their own algorithms_ if they immerse themselves. It's addiction. We need to stop acting like it is "weak-minded" people (children is a dog-whistle for this) who are susceptible to tech addiction. The idea of "standing a chance" is literally like saying you can consciously control your dopamine receptors to actively limit dopamine uptake in your brain.

kurthr 8y ago
Bingo (anecdata)... a few years ago I spent the last 15min of a flight into SFO talking to a lady (who had been playing Bejeweled for 4 hours straight) about using touchscreens so long (it's my job). She mentioned how shaky she gets when she has to stop playing... I asked what she did... a game designer at Zynga.
- usrusr 8y ago
  More anecdata: we're all here, right?
  - drb91 8y ago
    Painful but accurate.
mitko 8y ago
Can confirm... I am a 31 year old _data scientist_ who worked on these kind of algorithms, saw the metrics, and tweaked the algorithms to increase these metrics. I got addicted and it is harder to develop a healthy relationship with my phone/social media/youtube than it is with caffeine (I quit it!) or alcohol (I take a 1-2 month long break every year and rarely have more than 1 drink).
jjeaff 8y ago
You can't control your dopamine uptake, but you can certainly control your actions. Especially when you recognize what is happening. If I see myself spending too much time on my phone, for instance, I'll put it away for a while.