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I think the problems with [non-native] GUIs on the Mac are compounded by their developers likely not having as much passion for look & feel as Cocoa-heads to st

by frou_dh 16y ago

I think the problems with [non-native] GUIs on the Mac are compounded by their developers likely not having as much passion for look & feel as Cocoa-heads to start with, regardless of the quality of the APIs. I was under the impression that the IntelliJ IDE was a diamond, then I saw a dude use it in a screencast and the design looked grim.

allertonm 16y ago
I wouldn't go so far as to say grim - but it definitely shows that even with the best of efforts, Swing is never going to cut it for non-developer applications. IntelliJ is about as good as Swing apps get on OSX. Gotta feel for the JetBrains guys, I have a feeling that a good chunk of their users are on Macs and it's not clear that they'll have a way forward. It does look to me like Eclipse will be a viable option in future. Which, as an IntelliJ fan using a Mac, doesn't make me super happy. That said, I think the original article was spot-on.
- sutro 16y ago
  This could be a way forward for an open Swing toolkit on Mac: http://lists.apple.com/archives/java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00493.html http://lists.apple.com/archives/java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00493.h...
- strlen 16y ago
  IntelliJ does use JNA quite extensive, already, on the Mac. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine more extensive use of JNA e.g., for custom widgets. JetBrains guys are very smart (I dislike Java as a language, but I continue to be impressed by IntelliJ) and I have no doubt they'd be able to switch a native layer if needed: they have all the motivation to (it's a commercial product).
towndrunk 16y ago
Nice UI's can be done on the mac with swing. As you mention they require passion. Take a look at what this guy has built with Swing. http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/ http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/
- mnutt 16y ago
  Back when I worked at LimeWire (probably the largest Swing install base in the world) I played around with MacWidgets. It's really an admirable effort, but trying to emulate Cocoa in Java always feels a little off. It's sort of an Uncanny Valley effect...you can't easily point out what's wrong, but you know it's not quite right. Either build a real Cocoa interface, or go LimeWire's route and don't make it look native at all.
michaelneale 16y ago
IDEA (IntelliJ IDE) is a diamond - but not visually. In terms of editing (and this applies to scala, ruby, javascript as well as java) the experience is amazing - it really understands what you are doing. But it is the ugliest thing... just horrible, but if you can get past that, it is a great tool. OS-X users are a big paying contingent for Jetbrains - so I expect they will find a way, one way or another, to make it run well.
- geophile 16y ago
  Huh? I don't get this at all. IntelliJ is a phenomenally great IDE. I'm sure that is blinding me to the ugliness you're seeing. But thinking about just the visual elements, I still don't see your point. What exactly is the problem? Now Eclipse -- that's ugly, inside and out.
  - St-Clock 16y ago
    Font rendering is horrible (at least on linux), you have to try various l&f before finding one that is "acceptable", etc. It's a great IDE, general usability is certainly better than Eclipse (it was meant to be an IDE as opposed to Eclipse which is a platform with an IDE built on top), but personally, font rendering was a deal break.
    - michaelneale 16y ago
      Thankfully that bit is fine on a mac. And really - that is 90% of it there - the rest is a distraction. Their icons are, well, tasteless is the best way to describe them. I know people don't often talk about usability and developer tools - but it really really matters. You spend a LOT of time on it - may as well fuss over it and make it right. IDEA gets so much right.... and this is also a good example of when user experience can be great, but design (graphic) not so great.

by frou_dh 16y ago

allertonm 16y ago

I wouldn't go so far as to say grim - but it definitely shows that even with the best of efforts, Swing is never going to cut it for non-developer applications. IntelliJ is about as good as Swing apps get on OSX. Gotta feel for the JetBrains guys, I have a feeling that a good chunk of their users are on Macs and it's not clear that they'll have a way forward. It does look to me like Eclipse will be a viable option in future. Which, as an IntelliJ fan using a Mac, doesn't make me super happy. That said, I think the original article was spot-on.

sutro 16y ago
This could be a way forward for an open Swing toolkit on Mac: http://lists.apple.com/archives/java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00493.html http://lists.apple.com/archives/java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00493.h...
strlen 16y ago
IntelliJ does use JNA quite extensive, already, on the Mac. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine more extensive use of JNA e.g., for custom widgets. JetBrains guys are very smart (I dislike Java as a language, but I continue to be impressed by IntelliJ) and I have no doubt they'd be able to switch a native layer if needed: they have all the motivation to (it's a commercial product).

towndrunk 16y ago

Nice UI's can be done on the mac with swing. As you mention they require passion. Take a look at what this guy has built with Swing. http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/ http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/

mnutt 16y ago
Back when I worked at LimeWire (probably the largest Swing install base in the world) I played around with MacWidgets. It's really an admirable effort, but trying to emulate Cocoa in Java always feels a little off. It's sort of an Uncanny Valley effect...you can't easily point out what's wrong, but you know it's not quite right. Either build a real Cocoa interface, or go LimeWire's route and don't make it look native at all.

michaelneale 16y ago

IDEA (IntelliJ IDE) is a diamond - but not visually. In terms of editing (and this applies to scala, ruby, javascript as well as java) the experience is amazing - it really understands what you are doing. But it is the ugliest thing... just horrible, but if you can get past that, it is a great tool. OS-X users are a big paying contingent for Jetbrains - so I expect they will find a way, one way or another, to make it run well.

geophile 16y ago
Huh? I don't get this at all. IntelliJ is a phenomenally great IDE. I'm sure that is blinding me to the ugliness you're seeing. But thinking about just the visual elements, I still don't see your point. What exactly is the problem? Now Eclipse -- that's ugly, inside and out.
- St-Clock 16y ago
  Font rendering is horrible (at least on linux), you have to try various l&f before finding one that is "acceptable", etc. It's a great IDE, general usability is certainly better than Eclipse (it was meant to be an IDE as opposed to Eclipse which is a platform with an IDE built on top), but personally, font rendering was a deal break.
  - michaelneale 16y ago
    Thankfully that bit is fine on a mac. And really - that is 90% of it there - the rest is a distraction. Their icons are, well, tasteless is the best way to describe them. I know people don't often talk about usability and developer tools - but it really really matters. You spend a LOT of time on it - may as well fuss over it and make it right. IDEA gets so much right.... and this is also a good example of when user experience can be great, but design (graphic) not so great.