6 ms·

The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal

The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally, activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one. I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical. But why is tech framed the opposite of art? Why is tech equal to techbro? Yea there are always bad apples. But I wonder what Da Vinci would think about holding art in the opposite category as tech? I'd argue they're more synonymous than opposite. To me, there's creativity. Both art and tech are creative. Applied creativity pertains to both code or a paint canvas. Either way, the best, most valuable work to society is often never been done before. Can anyone name an art piece (or if I'm being generous, an art movement) in the last 15 years that's made the level of impact as Google? Or cryptocurrency? Ultimately, to me, the 'artists' need to up their game. Big time. [1] Protest city hall if you feel gentrified. Especially in SF where it's largely illegal to build housing. Also, regarding gentrification, you don't hear the positive stories of immigrant families whose businesses flourish because of increased capital in an area, or those who feel safer, or even those who cashed out and sold their 50k house for 1.2 million. Again you hear a largely misdirected, dated and one-sided argument.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
I think your comment is extremely patronizing and arrogant ("To me, it shows haters' level of intellect.") and a "let them eat cake" attitude that to me shows a clear lack of understanding of why people have become so anti-tech over the past 2 decades.
- pteredactyl 8y ago
  If you see the world in black and white then yes, I will question your intellect. If you look at some of the best, most novel tech and do not see 'art' then yes I will question your intellect. I could go on.
- avip 8y ago
  I think we should stop using these empty terms in discussion. They contribute nothing, it’s just ad hominem.
  - blablabla123 8y ago
    Yup, on both sides of the argument. But in any way, there is some deeper truth here, the whole discussion went ad hominem already years ago. Also it sucks for "the good guys" - literally - that tech has a bad reputation in that sense and on the other hand this is improving only so slowly. On the other hand it's of course naive to say that artists are good people per se, that is just not true. This is almost biblical, considering that artists are always poor and thus good. We all need to progress, not only people in tech.
  - kadendogthing 8y ago
    They're not empty terms. They're appropriate qualifiers. And they're not even close to being ad hominem. Don't invoke logical fallacies if you don't understand their usage.
kadendogthing 8y ago
Just so you know, your entire comments reacts of bitterness and ignorance. You think their view point on art is stuck in the 20th century, but that's only because you clearly don't understand the type of community you're dealing with. In fact your view point seems extremely myopic and appears to be constrained around your own motivations and hobbies. >But why is tech framed the opposite of art? You are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. It's not tech vs. art. It's a "here's these people that make a lot of money and end up just being really big consumers" vs people that are the "creatives." The type that give a neighborhood flare. Consider a programmer who perhaps love the "art" of programming and spends the majority of their time coding/tinkering without compensation (a rare prospect these days, admittedly), versus someone who works at a corporate job, does what they need to do, and goes home. Neither is better than the other, but they will end up creating radically different communities. >Why is tech equal to techbro? Because it's just the type of people it attracts these days. Name one neighborhood where a group of IT people came into that neighborhood and made it a creative space. Without fail, it just becomes a giant consumer hub with absurd rent prices. Artists tend to congregate in areas with other artists and areas that have cheap rent. Tech tends to drive up rent, and it certainly isn't an industry that attracts artists not centered around digital design. >Or cryptocurrency? The technology that did absolutely nothing, soaked up huge amount of raw resources, so techbros could play a game about who's going to be left holding the bag? This is exactly why I used the term myopic. You might find it interesting and cool, and that's great! But it hasn't done anything for anyone else outside the tech sphere. In fact it's actually pretty easy to argue it's been a net-negative across the board.
- pteredactyl 8y ago
  I'm bitter and ignorant? I've lived in these communities of 'creatives'. For years. I know its a lot of drugs, idealism and not a lot of action. Except for complaining about how wronged they've been by the system. Is that your 'another world is possible'? So maybe I am bitter... Don't get me wrong, the system is fucked up in many ways. And I agree with your distinction of a grey blandness that permeates the tech culture. I'm more interested in how all the enlightened 'creatives' can engage with this boring grey techbro community. Because frankly, they're the ones paying for most of their free shit.
globe1337 8y ago
you sound like that rick and morty copypasta. embarrassing.
mrzool 8y ago
> The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. Your comment shows utter ignorance about what's happening — or already happened — in virtually every major city in every developed country.
- wbl 8y ago
  How are Tokyo housing prices? Vienna's cost of living is kept down by large amounts of social housing, etc. Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.
  - hnzix 8y ago
    > Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing. The pattern I've seen (excluding SF) is that an arty area becomes trendy because of its culture, then a bunch of real estate developers kick out all the artists to build high-density housing while bringing in residential zoning laws (no live music etc). The artists flee somewhere cheaper, build up the culture, rinse and repeat, until you end up with somewhere like Sydney Australia that's had all its culture surgically removed.
    - wbl 8y ago
      Imagine if we permitted apartments in Forrest Hills.
  - askmike 8y ago
    That's cherry picking, it's happening in virtually every major city in every developed country. > Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing. It's a much more complex than simply lack of housing. It's commonly described to neighborhoods, not cities.
eigenvector 8y ago
The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living. Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite of that, very rapidly and very predictably.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Most people working for tech startups (as opposed to for Google itself) don't make anywhere near that salary, especially not outside the major US tech hubs. This campus would have been a startup incubator, not a regular Google office. That said, yes it would have still contributed to gentrification in a less extreme way than a true Google office.
  - ehnto 8y ago
    A low cost of living is also a benefit to bootstrapped software/web companies (small blogs, niche publishers, other online content creators). But gentrification still happens without big dollar companies showing up. It's often a side effect of the success of the arts in the area. As the wealthy kids move in to be hip and cool, and the businesses that enjoy their money move in afterward, rents go up and creators are pushed out.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Berlin is big, and Germany is much bigger, and there are tons of places for artists. Even in Berlin.
  - VonGallifrey 8y ago
    The issue is that Google wanted to go to the very specific and small space in Berlin where tons of artists are. Berlin is "big" (although not as big as you might think), so why would Google need to be in Kreuzberg when it can be ANYWHERE else.
    - mercer 8y ago

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago

I think your comment is extremely patronizing and arrogant ("To me, it shows haters' level of intellect.") and a "let them eat cake" attitude that to me shows a clear lack of understanding of why people have become so anti-tech over the past 2 decades.

pteredactyl 8y ago
If you see the world in black and white then yes, I will question your intellect. If you look at some of the best, most novel tech and do not see 'art' then yes I will question your intellect. I could go on.
avip 8y ago
I think we should stop using these empty terms in discussion. They contribute nothing, it’s just ad hominem.
- blablabla123 8y ago
  Yup, on both sides of the argument. But in any way, there is some deeper truth here, the whole discussion went ad hominem already years ago. Also it sucks for "the good guys" - literally - that tech has a bad reputation in that sense and on the other hand this is improving only so slowly. On the other hand it's of course naive to say that artists are good people per se, that is just not true. This is almost biblical, considering that artists are always poor and thus good. We all need to progress, not only people in tech.
- kadendogthing 8y ago
  They're not empty terms. They're appropriate qualifiers. And they're not even close to being ad hominem. Don't invoke logical fallacies if you don't understand their usage.

kadendogthing 8y ago

Just so you know, your entire comments reacts of bitterness and ignorance. You think their view point on art is stuck in the 20th century, but that's only because you clearly don't understand the type of community you're dealing with. In fact your view point seems extremely myopic and appears to be constrained around your own motivations and hobbies. >But why is tech framed the opposite of art? You are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. It's not tech vs. art. It's a "here's these people that make a lot of money and end up just being really big consumers" vs people that are the "creatives." The type that give a neighborhood flare. Consider a programmer who perhaps love the "art" of programming and spends the majority of their time coding/tinkering without compensation (a rare prospect these days, admittedly), versus someone who works at a corporate job, does what they need to do, and goes home. Neither is better than the other, but they will end up creating radically different communities. >Why is tech equal to techbro? Because it's just the type of people it attracts these days. Name one neighborhood where a group of IT people came into that neighborhood and made it a creative space. Without fail, it just becomes a giant consumer hub with absurd rent prices. Artists tend to congregate in areas with other artists and areas that have cheap rent. Tech tends to drive up rent, and it certainly isn't an industry that attracts artists not centered around digital design. >Or cryptocurrency? The technology that did absolutely nothing, soaked up huge amount of raw resources, so techbros could play a game about who's going to be left holding the bag? This is exactly why I used the term myopic. You might find it interesting and cool, and that's great! But it hasn't done anything for anyone else outside the tech sphere. In fact it's actually pretty easy to argue it's been a net-negative across the board.

pteredactyl 8y ago
I'm bitter and ignorant? I've lived in these communities of 'creatives'. For years. I know its a lot of drugs, idealism and not a lot of action. Except for complaining about how wronged they've been by the system. Is that your 'another world is possible'? So maybe I am bitter... Don't get me wrong, the system is fucked up in many ways. And I agree with your distinction of a grey blandness that permeates the tech culture. I'm more interested in how all the enlightened 'creatives' can engage with this boring grey techbro community. Because frankly, they're the ones paying for most of their free shit.

globe1337 8y ago

you sound like that rick and morty copypasta. embarrassing.

mrzool 8y ago

> The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. Your comment shows utter ignorance about what's happening — or already happened — in virtually every major city in every developed country.

wbl 8y ago
How are Tokyo housing prices? Vienna's cost of living is kept down by large amounts of social housing, etc. Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.
- hnzix 8y ago
  > Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing. The pattern I've seen (excluding SF) is that an arty area becomes trendy because of its culture, then a bunch of real estate developers kick out all the artists to build high-density housing while bringing in residential zoning laws (no live music etc). The artists flee somewhere cheaper, build up the culture, rinse and repeat, until you end up with somewhere like Sydney Australia that's had all its culture surgically removed.
  - wbl 8y ago
    Imagine if we permitted apartments in Forrest Hills.
- askmike 8y ago
  That's cherry picking, it's happening in virtually every major city in every developed country. > Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing. It's a much more complex than simply lack of housing. It's commonly described to neighborhoods, not cities.

eigenvector 8y ago

The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living. Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite of that, very rapidly and very predictably.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Most people working for tech startups (as opposed to for Google itself) don't make anywhere near that salary, especially not outside the major US tech hubs. This campus would have been a startup incubator, not a regular Google office. That said, yes it would have still contributed to gentrification in a less extreme way than a true Google office.
- ehnto 8y ago
  A low cost of living is also a benefit to bootstrapped software/web companies (small blogs, niche publishers, other online content creators). But gentrification still happens without big dollar companies showing up. It's often a side effect of the success of the arts in the area. As the wealthy kids move in to be hip and cool, and the businesses that enjoy their money move in afterward, rents go up and creators are pushed out.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Berlin is big, and Germany is much bigger, and there are tons of places for artists. Even in Berlin.
- VonGallifrey 8y ago
  The issue is that Google wanted to go to the very specific and small space in Berlin where tons of artists are. Berlin is "big" (although not as big as you might think), so why would Google need to be in Kreuzberg when it can be ANYWHERE else.
  - mercer 8y ago