5 ms·

The vote situation in the US is so fucked ! It's unbelievable. I'm glad France is sticking to simple paper and ballot are publicly open.

by remify 8y ago

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
As long as they actually are simple - there have been instances (e.g. in the US) where poor design of the voting paper caused confusion as to who you were actually voting for. Then there's the case of improperly filling them in, invalidating a number of voting papers as well. Maybe do a combination? Voting machine that prints a hard copy of your vote. Activate by scanning your passport or other proof of voting right, centralized secure repository of who has voted or some kind of deduplication of votes when counting.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  It’s not like digital UIs are any more immune from poor design issues that make it confusing to determine who you’re voting for. Plus you have the problem of poorly calibrated touch screens where you think you’re tapping one name but it turns out the other got activated.
  - moltar 8y ago
    Maybe do something like this: https://youtu.be/LXzJR7K0wK0 https://youtu.be/LXzJR7K0wK0
- maeln 8y ago
  I don't understand how is it possible to design a paper ballot that is confusing. In France, you have 1 paper for each candidate with their name + party on the paper. You receive each paper by the post before an election AND there is always all the papers in the voting place anyway. You just put the paper of the candidate you want to vote for in the ballot box and that is it. I understand there is more complicated voting system (e.g where you can rate candidate), but when do you need to choose one option in several, why would anybody want to use a different voting paper design ?
  - theandrewbailey 8y ago
    > I don't understand how is it possible to design a paper ballot that is confusing. Say hello to the butterfly ballot: https://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html https://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html > You receive each paper by the post before an election AND there is always all the papers in the voting place anyway. That opens the possibility to observe people picking up the paper of $CONTROVERSIAL_CANDIDATE and dropping it into the box, thus revealing who they voted for.
    - martinml 8y ago
      They usually are behind a closed booth, at least in Spain.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      > That opens the possibility to observe people picking up the paper of $CONTROVERSIAL_CANDIDATE and dropping it into the box, thus revealing who they voted for. You are supposed to pick at least two papers and usually there are enough paper so that everyone can pick one of each. Then you go to a booth, hidden behind a curtain and put one of the paper in an envelope (given after the official has checked your elector's card), discard the other paper in a basket case, then drop the envelope in the ballot box. Of course it limits the possibilities of the vote: one person can only vote for one candidate, on the other hand, it's easier to understand for the voters.
  - jchb 8y ago
    US ballot is a lot more complex than in most western European countries in that voters have a say on a lot more stuff! You vote for president, senate, congress, sheriff, education board members, a bunch of other offices, and also constitutional amendments. All on the same day/occasion - if spreading it out many election days would be needed! A google on “US state general ballot sample” gave me this: https://cdn.ballotpedia.org/images/3/33/Colorado_sample_ballot_%28Sedgwick_County%29.pdf#page=1 https://cdn.ballotpedia.org/images/3/33/Colorado_sample_ball...
  - toast0 8y ago
    As others said, sometimes we are voting on a lot of offices and a lot of initiatives/propositions. A voter is in several different type of districts, and the boundaries often don't line up, so your neighbor may be in the same federal congressional district, but not the same state congressional district, etc. Commonly in California, I voted on congressional districts, water district, lower school school district, high school school district, community college school district, water district, sanitary district, flood control district, vector control district, county supervisors, and I wasn't even in a city to have city supervisors or mayor. Almost all of these electrions are timed together, in order to increase turnout and reduce the election expenses. Ocassionaly, we have hundreds of candidates for one office (ex California governor recall replacement that got Arnold Schwarzenegger into office).
- tomatotomato37 8y ago
  Activate by scanning your passport or other proof of voting right There are two problems with that: 1. People consider it discreminatory unless the US mass-distributes some voter ID thing that is near-forced into the possession of everyone who can vaguely verify their identity (which I disagree with but whatever) 2. More importantly, someone will fuck up the 'secret' part of the secret ballot, which will get leaked/hacked into the public, which in the current level of public discourse would probably end in WWIII
- raghava 8y ago
  >> Voting machine that prints a hard copy of your vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter-verified_paper_audit_trail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter-verified_paper_audit_tra... >> Activate by scanning your passport or other proof of voting right, centralized secure repository of who has voted or some kind of deduplication of votes when counting. This part (i.e - authorize the voter) should always be separate from actual voting system to protect the system of secret ballot for a true democracy.
maeln 8y ago
In some election, we start to have voting machine. They are rolling out slowly but they are coming :/
- comboy 8y ago
  Voting machines can be safe(r). It's just that there seem to be no incentive. Contractor should pay at least twice the money he received in case a security flaw is found among clearly stated attack vectors. No contractor wants to take such offer? That means we are not ready for voting machines yet.
  - moviuro 8y ago
    > Voting machines can be safe(r). Please expand. As is, voting machines are the worst idea imaginable. I have yet to read any positive argument for voting machines.
    - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
      Positive: Easier / (much) faster vote counting, not prone to human error or counter bias / agenda. I'm not a fan of insecure voting machines myself but I can come up with some reasons why one would want to use machines.
      - moviuro 8y ago
        > Easier / (much) faster vote counting Irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I would much rather wait one more day to have the definitive name of my new president than have a machine decide that for me 24hours earlier. > not prone to human error or counter bias / agenda That's why vote counting is a public ceremony; and also why the "voting neighborhoods" are quite small. See e.g. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16828 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16828 (in French). At least 2 people count the votes, etc.
        kiriakasis 8y ago

The vote situation in the US is so fucked ! It's unbelievable. I'm glad France is sticking to simple paper and ballot are publicly open.

by remify 8y ago

The vote situation in the US is so fucked ! It's unbelievable. I'm glad France is sticking to simple paper and ballot are publicly open.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

As long as they actually are simple - there have been instances (e.g. in the US) where poor design of the voting paper caused confusion as to who you were actually voting for. Then there's the case of improperly filling them in, invalidating a number of voting papers as well. Maybe do a combination? Voting machine that prints a hard copy of your vote. Activate by scanning your passport or other proof of voting right, centralized secure repository of who has voted or some kind of deduplication of votes when counting.

cimmanom 8y ago
It’s not like digital UIs are any more immune from poor design issues that make it confusing to determine who you’re voting for. Plus you have the problem of poorly calibrated touch screens where you think you’re tapping one name but it turns out the other got activated.
- moltar 8y ago
  Maybe do something like this: https://youtu.be/LXzJR7K0wK0 https://youtu.be/LXzJR7K0wK0
maeln 8y ago
I don't understand how is it possible to design a paper ballot that is confusing. In France, you have 1 paper for each candidate with their name + party on the paper. You receive each paper by the post before an election AND there is always all the papers in the voting place anyway. You just put the paper of the candidate you want to vote for in the ballot box and that is it. I understand there is more complicated voting system (e.g where you can rate candidate), but when do you need to choose one option in several, why would anybody want to use a different voting paper design ?
- theandrewbailey 8y ago
  > I don't understand how is it possible to design a paper ballot that is confusing. Say hello to the butterfly ballot: https://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html https://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html > You receive each paper by the post before an election AND there is always all the papers in the voting place anyway. That opens the possibility to observe people picking up the paper of $CONTROVERSIAL_CANDIDATE and dropping it into the box, thus revealing who they voted for.
  - martinml 8y ago
    They usually are behind a closed booth, at least in Spain.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    > That opens the possibility to observe people picking up the paper of $CONTROVERSIAL_CANDIDATE and dropping it into the box, thus revealing who they voted for. You are supposed to pick at least two papers and usually there are enough paper so that everyone can pick one of each. Then you go to a booth, hidden behind a curtain and put one of the paper in an envelope (given after the official has checked your elector's card), discard the other paper in a basket case, then drop the envelope in the ballot box. Of course it limits the possibilities of the vote: one person can only vote for one candidate, on the other hand, it's easier to understand for the voters.
- jchb 8y ago
  US ballot is a lot more complex than in most western European countries in that voters have a say on a lot more stuff! You vote for president, senate, congress, sheriff, education board members, a bunch of other offices, and also constitutional amendments. All on the same day/occasion - if spreading it out many election days would be needed! A google on “US state general ballot sample” gave me this: https://cdn.ballotpedia.org/images/3/33/Colorado_sample_ballot_%28Sedgwick_County%29.pdf#page=1 https://cdn.ballotpedia.org/images/3/33/Colorado_sample_ball...
- toast0 8y ago
  As others said, sometimes we are voting on a lot of offices and a lot of initiatives/propositions. A voter is in several different type of districts, and the boundaries often don't line up, so your neighbor may be in the same federal congressional district, but not the same state congressional district, etc. Commonly in California, I voted on congressional districts, water district, lower school school district, high school school district, community college school district, water district, sanitary district, flood control district, vector control district, county supervisors, and I wasn't even in a city to have city supervisors or mayor. Almost all of these electrions are timed together, in order to increase turnout and reduce the election expenses. Ocassionaly, we have hundreds of candidates for one office (ex California governor recall replacement that got Arnold Schwarzenegger into office).
tomatotomato37 8y ago
Activate by scanning your passport or other proof of voting right There are two problems with that: 1. People consider it discreminatory unless the US mass-distributes some voter ID thing that is near-forced into the possession of everyone who can vaguely verify their identity (which I disagree with but whatever) 2. More importantly, someone will fuck up the 'secret' part of the secret ballot, which will get leaked/hacked into the public, which in the current level of public discourse would probably end in WWIII
raghava 8y ago
>> Voting machine that prints a hard copy of your vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter-verified_paper_audit_trail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter-verified_paper_audit_tra... >> Activate by scanning your passport or other proof of voting right, centralized secure repository of who has voted or some kind of deduplication of votes when counting. This part (i.e - authorize the voter) should always be separate from actual voting system to protect the system of secret ballot for a true democracy.

maeln 8y ago

In some election, we start to have voting machine. They are rolling out slowly but they are coming :/

comboy 8y ago
Voting machines can be safe(r). It's just that there seem to be no incentive. Contractor should pay at least twice the money he received in case a security flaw is found among clearly stated attack vectors. No contractor wants to take such offer? That means we are not ready for voting machines yet.
- moviuro 8y ago
  > Voting machines can be safe(r). Please expand. As is, voting machines are the worst idea imaginable. I have yet to read any positive argument for voting machines.
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    Positive: Easier / (much) faster vote counting, not prone to human error or counter bias / agenda. I'm not a fan of insecure voting machines myself but I can come up with some reasons why one would want to use machines.
    - moviuro 8y ago
      > Easier / (much) faster vote counting Irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I would much rather wait one more day to have the definitive name of my new president than have a machine decide that for me 24hours earlier. > not prone to human error or counter bias / agenda That's why vote counting is a public ceremony; and also why the "voting neighborhoods" are quite small. See e.g. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16828 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16828 (in French). At least 2 people count the votes, etc.
      - kiriakasis 8y ago