7 ms·

How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

115 points by extraterra 8y ago

themodelplumber 8y ago
Nice article. I remember first reading about kinyou curry in the manga series "Zipang" by Kaiji Kawaguchi, in which a modern Japanese Aegis destroyer gets time-warped back to WWII on the first day of the Battle of Midway. Semi-related: We hear a lot about about Japanese curry when it comes to soupy things. But we never hear about Japanese stew (shichuu). Sometimes when I was getting sick of curry--hard to imagine now--a plate of rich creamy (white) beef stew with some rice in the middle of winter was just the thing. The roux blocks for stew were right next to the curry roux blocks in the store. It had a unique taste that I haven't experienced since moving back to the states. Example picture: http://darjapan.blogspot.com/2012/10/hokkaido-cream-stew.html?m=1 http://darjapan.blogspot.com/2012/10/hokkaido-cream-stew.htm...
- thrower123 8y ago
  Looks delicious
- jac_no_k 8y ago
  If you manage to find a Japanese grocer, it's a staple item. In a pinch, order through Amazon: House Foods Cream Stew, 4.93 Ounce (Pack of 10) by House Foods Link: http://a.co/d/hXsgx21 http://a.co/d/hXsgx21
  - themodelplumber 8y ago
    Awesome, thank you!
cfjgvjh 8y ago
There is a page on the Ministry of Defense website listing curry recipes for various ships/subs/etc. in the JMSDF. http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/currey.html http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/curre...
- malloryerik 8y ago
  I do wish they'd change the Japanese naval flag -- in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism, almost as potent as a Nazi swastika. It doesn't do Japan any good to fly the old imperial flag from every Maritime Self Defense Force vessel, even if it was the naval flag since 1889 (by which time Japan already had imperial designs).
  - rangibaby 8y ago
    If the Japanese had to change their military symbols for that reason, every country in the world would. Even Germany still uses the iron cross as the symbol of their air force.
    - malloryerik 8y ago
      I don't see why every country would have to change their symbol. Yes, all countries have guilt in their pasts, as do all people, but Imperial Japan was a fascist regime that killed 50 million often with horrific brutality. And let's remember, it's just a war flag, you can change it with the stroke of a pen. The flag won't care. The Self Defense Forces won't start to suck, and the neighbors will have one less reason to think of Japan as an enemy, a real boost to national defense. You might not understand the depth of animus in the region against Japan -- schoolchildren are taught to despise it because of the fascist empire, and the Rising Sun Flag is shown as an analog to the Nazi swastika. Completely unlike Germans, Japanese are portrayed as at best ignorant of the dark side of their own nation's history, and flying a flag that on sight causes more than a billion people to swell with rage because they connect it to Japan's fascist past does nothing to dispel that notion. Fret not, the neighbors also choose to forget the dark sides of their pasts. Yet they must all live together, in an environment that feels like it mixes 21st century technology with late 19th century nationalism. I love Japan. I've been visiting five or six times a year for quite a while. I flew in naval exercises alongside the Maritime Self Defense Forces. I enjoy Japanese curry. You should really try curry soup in Sapporo, it's fantastic. I could happily live in Japan for the rest of my days. I'd still be happy if they changed the damn counter-productive war flag.
miyhhbftdx 8y ago
> The word “curry” originated in India, although it did not have a long history there. Instead, it derived from a Portuguese mispronunciation of a term meaning “spices,” which British colonizers applied to a wide swath of Indian dishes. Such misinformation that I can't even... Kari is a Tamil word. I am Tamil. It has been in the vocabulary for thousands of years. Just made some elephant yam kari for lunch. It is always dry. Zero gravy. Something with gravy is kootu. (Japanese kare is something completely different. It is by definition a thick gravy. It might trace its origins to india. But it is a separate dish now.)
- guruparan18 8y ago
  Exactly! There is also a term "kaai-kari" meaning vegetable dry side dish for a main course. Kari as a term is as old as pepper. Any dish that had pepper used to be called as kari (see [1]) [1] https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/tamil-lex_query.py?qs=%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%B1%E0%AE%BF&searchhws=yes https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/tamil-lex_query.p...
- lgessler 8y ago
  FWIW online etymologies seem to suggest this description isn't totally off, but I agree the bit about it not having a history is transparently wrong. Etymonline[1]: > kind of sauce or relish much used in Indian cookery, from the leaves of a southwest Asian plant related to the lemon, 1680s, from Tamil (Dravidian) kari "sauce, relish for rice," also "a bite, bit, morsel." As "meat or vegetable stew flavored with curry powder," 1747 in British English. This one implies that கறி can refer to the spice in a dish as well as the dish as a whole--seems likely. That is, for instance, how "masala"[2] works in Hindi, which literally means 'spices' but can help form the name of an entire dish, as in "paneer masala". Wiktionary[3]: > 1747 (as currey, first published recipe for the dish in English[1][2]), from Tamil கறி (kaṟi), influenced by existing Middle English cury (“cooking”),[2] from French cuire (“to cook”) (from which also cuisine), from Vulgar Latin cocere, from Latin coquere, present active infinitive of coquō. > Earlier cury found in 1390 cookbook Forme of Cury (Forms of Cooking) by court chefs of Richard II of England. To be clear: what happened here is that English already had a word "curry" (this is the one we get in the expression "curry favor"), and it encountered and incorporated the Tamil word which coincidentally had an identical pronunciation and a very related meaning. [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491 https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491 [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BE https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E... [3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1
delbel 8y ago
I eat pre-mixed Thai curry paste from this brand called "Mae Ploy" with coconut oil, powdered coconut milk, meat (either chicken or beef) and vegetables. There's about five different flavors and for $8 you get a 2 pound bucket of it I have never actually been able to finish one in less than a year. Turns out I can eat an amazing very low carb meal for about $2 a day and 2-3 minutes of meal prep. It's currently my "meal for life". If there is a Japanese pre-mixed curry for sale, let me know!
- rangibaby 8y ago
  https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=カレー%20ルー https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=カレー%20ルー They should be available at any shop that sells Japanese or Asian food
- pgreenwood 8y ago
  S&B Golden Curry
- jgorn 8y ago
  That sounds delicious, I love how much flavour is packed in Thai curry paste. But how can you make a fully cooked curry in 2-3 minutes?
  - temp0876456 8y ago
    Thai curry is cooked quickly, usually in a wok. Japanese curry, in contrast, is usually simmered for a long time. The latter is to thicken and soften the meat and vegetables. Thai curry’s consistency is managed by using more or less coconut milk vs the actual paste. And the meat and vegetable pieces are cut much smaller so they cook almost instantly.
    - C1sc0cat 8y ago
      Depends on the recipe a traditional Rogan Josh should be marinated for 24-48 Hours. I also tend to do tika in a wok if I am doing a curry then simmer the cocked chicken in the wok to finish it off.
etymacct123 8y ago
not just curry but soup is also indian! of course completely denied by the west so far soup is from sanskrit supa attested in arthashastra of kautilya dated to 1st millennium BC by westerners and 2nd millennium BC by indians see link for specific quote from the text: http://www.alexmthomas.com/2016/05/22/a-review-of-trautmanns-arthashastra/ http://www.alexmthomas.com/2016/05/22/a-review-of-trautmanns...
- etymacct123 8y ago
  not to mention rice is an indian word as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Etymology but last time i tried mentioning that someone accused me of hindu nationalism and the banhammer was gonna fall
  - geoalchimista 8y ago
    Genetic evidence suggests that rice was cultivated in Southeast Asia (Yangtze River Valley). See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3101000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3101000/. So, its true linguistic origin may still be something upstream.
    - etymacct123 8y ago
      actually genetic evidence is for multiple centres of domestication with later mixing providing a link for this is what got me accused last time so just search for how old is indian agriculture on your fave search engine in any case the chinese word is mi and has no linguistic relation to the word rice even the japanese call rice with a mix of the chinese and indian words
      - geoalchimista 8y ago
        > in any case the chinese word is mi and has no linguistic relation to the word rice I'm not suggesting a Chinese origin of the word. But I suspect this may not be the final answer. First, the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of the character "mi" (rice) today may not be the same as what it was pronounced 10,000 years ago. Second, people who lived in the Yangtze River Valley back then might not be speaking a Sinitic language. They might be speaking a Kra-Tai language. > just search for how old is indian agriculture on your fave search engine Pretty sure there were multiple origins of agriculture (e.g., Mesopotamia and Levant among others). It is difficult to argue which place came up with agriculture first.
jorblumesea 8y ago
Japanese curry is something different and special. There's something really savory and umami about it. CoCo Ichi is the jam, basically the Japanese waffle house.
- GolDDranks 8y ago
  I love CoCo Ichi, I visit there once a week, basically.
dirktheman 8y ago
The Royal Dutch Navy has a similar tradition: every Wednesday they serve 'blauwe hap' (blue bite, originating from the blue uniforms they used to wear): a dutch adaptation of the Indonesian dish nasi goreng.
telesilla 8y ago
Ah now I am dropped back 20 years in my past when I first had a curry udon, delicious and piping hot with gigantic pieces of melting tofu and soft boiled potato. I went back often to this cosy locale buried in the chinatown of a busy southern-hemisphere city. One day, it had disappeared and I still feel its loss. Though I try to reproduce this at home, and I try japanese curry whenever I come across one, I'll never again know those first flavours that brought me such happiness. It must have been a homemade curry because every store brand I've tried doesn't match my expectations. I'll keep trying..
sandGorgon 8y ago
I think curry is a adopted food in most cold countries and a native dish in hot, humid countries. A thick stew with tons of spices and salt is basically a food preservation mechanism - especially for vegetables and meat which would spoil quickly. Similarly, the origin of baked bread - cold countries had a stove for heating the home. someone figured out how to use it as an oven. Most hot countries use fried bread or roasted unleaved bread (roti). Because it is insane to stand over a stove for too long in such temperatures.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Preparing food in an oven or the very similar cooking pit has been popular in civilizations around the world. The difference to cold climates is that you keep the oven outside the building.
Markoff 8y ago
what i took from article for my next cooking: "powder, butter, meat (typically beef), root vegetables, and a sauce thickened with flour." sounds simple enough to try
- dwd 8y ago
  Super easy. I would have said chicken rather than beef which is hugely popular in Brisbane at lunch time. I've done this one a few times: double up on the sauce ingredients so you have plenty of gravy. Also simmer for as long as you can so the carrots and onion pretty well dissolve and you get a thicker sauce. You can also add Mirin and cut back on the honey. http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/29578/chicken-katsu-curry.aspx http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/29578/chicken-katsu-curry.asp...
Isamu 8y ago
Just want to chime in to say Japanese curry is awesome! Nothing against Indian or Thai curry, I love those different varieties too. But just that Japanese curry is its own thing, it is very different and you might like it even if you shy away from other kinds. Anybody here a fan of Japanese curry?
uranusjr 8y ago
In case someone is wondering why this only discusses curry being a naval tradition, although both the Army and Navy had the same beriberi problem—the Army solved it the same way as the Navy. Curry is as much a staple meal in the Army as Navy, just not celebrated as a culture as much.

115 points by extraterra 8y ago

Nice article. I remember first reading about kinyou curry in the manga series "Zipang" by Kaiji Kawaguchi, in which a modern Japanese Aegis destroyer gets time-warped back to WWII on the first day of the Battle of Midway. Semi-related: We hear a lot about about Japanese curry when it comes to soupy things. But we never hear about Japanese stew (shichuu). Sometimes when I was getting sick of curry--hard to imagine now--a plate of rich creamy (white) beef stew with some rice in the middle of winter was just the thing. The roux blocks for stew were right next to the curry roux blocks in the store. It had a unique taste that I haven't experienced since moving back to the states. Example picture: http://darjapan.blogspot.com/2012/10/hokkaido-cream-stew.html?m=1 http://darjapan.blogspot.com/2012/10/hokkaido-cream-stew.htm...

thrower123 8y ago
Looks delicious
jac_no_k 8y ago
If you manage to find a Japanese grocer, it's a staple item. In a pinch, order through Amazon: House Foods Cream Stew, 4.93 Ounce (Pack of 10) by House Foods Link: http://a.co/d/hXsgx21 http://a.co/d/hXsgx21
- themodelplumber 8y ago
  Awesome, thank you!

cfjgvjh 8y ago

There is a page on the Ministry of Defense website listing curry recipes for various ships/subs/etc. in the JMSDF. http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/currey.html http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/curre...

malloryerik 8y ago
I do wish they'd change the Japanese naval flag -- in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism, almost as potent as a Nazi swastika. It doesn't do Japan any good to fly the old imperial flag from every Maritime Self Defense Force vessel, even if it was the naval flag since 1889 (by which time Japan already had imperial designs).
- rangibaby 8y ago
  If the Japanese had to change their military symbols for that reason, every country in the world would. Even Germany still uses the iron cross as the symbol of their air force.
  - malloryerik 8y ago
    I don't see why every country would have to change their symbol. Yes, all countries have guilt in their pasts, as do all people, but Imperial Japan was a fascist regime that killed 50 million often with horrific brutality. And let's remember, it's just a war flag, you can change it with the stroke of a pen. The flag won't care. The Self Defense Forces won't start to suck, and the neighbors will have one less reason to think of Japan as an enemy, a real boost to national defense. You might not understand the depth of animus in the region against Japan -- schoolchildren are taught to despise it because of the fascist empire, and the Rising Sun Flag is shown as an analog to the Nazi swastika. Completely unlike Germans, Japanese are portrayed as at best ignorant of the dark side of their own nation's history, and flying a flag that on sight causes more than a billion people to swell with rage because they connect it to Japan's fascist past does nothing to dispel that notion. Fret not, the neighbors also choose to forget the dark sides of their pasts. Yet they must all live together, in an environment that feels like it mixes 21st century technology with late 19th century nationalism. I love Japan. I've been visiting five or six times a year for quite a while. I flew in naval exercises alongside the Maritime Self Defense Forces. I enjoy Japanese curry. You should really try curry soup in Sapporo, it's fantastic. I could happily live in Japan for the rest of my days. I'd still be happy if they changed the damn counter-productive war flag.

miyhhbftdx 8y ago

> The word “curry” originated in India, although it did not have a long history there. Instead, it derived from a Portuguese mispronunciation of a term meaning “spices,” which British colonizers applied to a wide swath of Indian dishes. Such misinformation that I can't even... Kari is a Tamil word. I am Tamil. It has been in the vocabulary for thousands of years. Just made some elephant yam kari for lunch. It is always dry. Zero gravy. Something with gravy is kootu. (Japanese kare is something completely different. It is by definition a thick gravy. It might trace its origins to india. But it is a separate dish now.)

guruparan18 8y ago
Exactly! There is also a term "kaai-kari" meaning vegetable dry side dish for a main course. Kari as a term is as old as pepper. Any dish that had pepper used to be called as kari (see [1]) [1] https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/tamil-lex_query.py?qs=%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%B1%E0%AE%BF&searchhws=yes https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/tamil-lex_query.p...
lgessler 8y ago
FWIW online etymologies seem to suggest this description isn't totally off, but I agree the bit about it not having a history is transparently wrong. Etymonline[1]: > kind of sauce or relish much used in Indian cookery, from the leaves of a southwest Asian plant related to the lemon, 1680s, from Tamil (Dravidian) kari "sauce, relish for rice," also "a bite, bit, morsel." As "meat or vegetable stew flavored with curry powder," 1747 in British English. This one implies that கறி can refer to the spice in a dish as well as the dish as a whole--seems likely. That is, for instance, how "masala"[2] works in Hindi, which literally means 'spices' but can help form the name of an entire dish, as in "paneer masala". Wiktionary[3]: > 1747 (as currey, first published recipe for the dish in English[1][2]), from Tamil கறி (kaṟi), influenced by existing Middle English cury (“cooking”),[2] from French cuire (“to cook”) (from which also cuisine), from Vulgar Latin cocere, from Latin coquere, present active infinitive of coquō. > Earlier cury found in 1390 cookbook Forme of Cury (Forms of Cooking) by court chefs of Richard II of England. To be clear: what happened here is that English already had a word "curry" (this is the one we get in the expression "curry favor"), and it encountered and incorporated the Tamil word which coincidentally had an identical pronunciation and a very related meaning. [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491 https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491 [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BE https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E... [3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/curry#Etymology_1

delbel 8y ago

I eat pre-mixed Thai curry paste from this brand called "Mae Ploy" with coconut oil, powdered coconut milk, meat (either chicken or beef) and vegetables. There's about five different flavors and for $8 you get a 2 pound bucket of it I have never actually been able to finish one in less than a year. Turns out I can eat an amazing very low carb meal for about $2 a day and 2-3 minutes of meal prep. It's currently my "meal for life". If there is a Japanese pre-mixed curry for sale, let me know!

rangibaby 8y ago
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=カレー%20ルー https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=カレー%20ルー They should be available at any shop that sells Japanese or Asian food
pgreenwood 8y ago
S&B Golden Curry
jgorn 8y ago
That sounds delicious, I love how much flavour is packed in Thai curry paste. But how can you make a fully cooked curry in 2-3 minutes?
- temp0876456 8y ago
  Thai curry is cooked quickly, usually in a wok. Japanese curry, in contrast, is usually simmered for a long time. The latter is to thicken and soften the meat and vegetables. Thai curry’s consistency is managed by using more or less coconut milk vs the actual paste. And the meat and vegetable pieces are cut much smaller so they cook almost instantly.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    Depends on the recipe a traditional Rogan Josh should be marinated for 24-48 Hours. I also tend to do tika in a wok if I am doing a curry then simmer the cocked chicken in the wok to finish it off.

etymacct123 8y ago

not just curry but soup is also indian! of course completely denied by the west so far soup is from sanskrit supa attested in arthashastra of kautilya dated to 1st millennium BC by westerners and 2nd millennium BC by indians see link for specific quote from the text: http://www.alexmthomas.com/2016/05/22/a-review-of-trautmanns-arthashastra/ http://www.alexmthomas.com/2016/05/22/a-review-of-trautmanns...

etymacct123 8y ago
not to mention rice is an indian word as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Etymology but last time i tried mentioning that someone accused me of hindu nationalism and the banhammer was gonna fall
- geoalchimista 8y ago
  Genetic evidence suggests that rice was cultivated in Southeast Asia (Yangtze River Valley). See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3101000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3101000/. So, its true linguistic origin may still be something upstream.
  - etymacct123 8y ago
    actually genetic evidence is for multiple centres of domestication with later mixing providing a link for this is what got me accused last time so just search for how old is indian agriculture on your fave search engine in any case the chinese word is mi and has no linguistic relation to the word rice even the japanese call rice with a mix of the chinese and indian words
    - geoalchimista 8y ago
      > in any case the chinese word is mi and has no linguistic relation to the word rice I'm not suggesting a Chinese origin of the word. But I suspect this may not be the final answer. First, the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of the character "mi" (rice) today may not be the same as what it was pronounced 10,000 years ago. Second, people who lived in the Yangtze River Valley back then might not be speaking a Sinitic language. They might be speaking a Kra-Tai language. > just search for how old is indian agriculture on your fave search engine Pretty sure there were multiple origins of agriculture (e.g., Mesopotamia and Levant among others). It is difficult to argue which place came up with agriculture first.

jorblumesea 8y ago

Japanese curry is something different and special. There's something really savory and umami about it. CoCo Ichi is the jam, basically the Japanese waffle house.

GolDDranks 8y ago
I love CoCo Ichi, I visit there once a week, basically.

dirktheman 8y ago

The Royal Dutch Navy has a similar tradition: every Wednesday they serve 'blauwe hap' (blue bite, originating from the blue uniforms they used to wear): a dutch adaptation of the Indonesian dish nasi goreng.

telesilla 8y ago

Ah now I am dropped back 20 years in my past when I first had a curry udon, delicious and piping hot with gigantic pieces of melting tofu and soft boiled potato. I went back often to this cosy locale buried in the chinatown of a busy southern-hemisphere city. One day, it had disappeared and I still feel its loss. Though I try to reproduce this at home, and I try japanese curry whenever I come across one, I'll never again know those first flavours that brought me such happiness. It must have been a homemade curry because every store brand I've tried doesn't match my expectations. I'll keep trying..

sandGorgon 8y ago

I think curry is a adopted food in most cold countries and a native dish in hot, humid countries. A thick stew with tons of spices and salt is basically a food preservation mechanism - especially for vegetables and meat which would spoil quickly. Similarly, the origin of baked bread - cold countries had a stove for heating the home. someone figured out how to use it as an oven. Most hot countries use fried bread or roasted unleaved bread (roti). Because it is insane to stand over a stove for too long in such temperatures.

adrianN 8y ago
Preparing food in an oven or the very similar cooking pit has been popular in civilizations around the world. The difference to cold climates is that you keep the oven outside the building.

Markoff 8y ago

what i took from article for my next cooking: "powder, butter, meat (typically beef), root vegetables, and a sauce thickened with flour." sounds simple enough to try

dwd 8y ago
Super easy. I would have said chicken rather than beef which is hugely popular in Brisbane at lunch time. I've done this one a few times: double up on the sauce ingredients so you have plenty of gravy. Also simmer for as long as you can so the carrots and onion pretty well dissolve and you get a thicker sauce. You can also add Mirin and cut back on the honey. http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/29578/chicken-katsu-curry.aspx http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/29578/chicken-katsu-curry.asp...

Isamu 8y ago

Just want to chime in to say Japanese curry is awesome! Nothing against Indian or Thai curry, I love those different varieties too. But just that Japanese curry is its own thing, it is very different and you might like it even if you shy away from other kinds. Anybody here a fan of Japanese curry?

uranusjr 8y ago

In case someone is wondering why this only discusses curry being a naval tradition, although both the Army and Navy had the same beriberi problem—the Army solved it the same way as the Navy. Curry is as much a staple meal in the Army as Navy, just not celebrated as a culture as much.