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Ford is basically stopping production of cars anyway as they found that trucks are more profitable. But yeah, don't buy one of their trucks either. But what man

Ford is basically stopping production of cars anyway as they found that trucks are more profitable. But yeah, don't buy one of their trucks either. But what manufacturer is an alternative? Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances!

cptskippy 8y ago
> Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances! That's a lie. Yes they have DRM in place to artificially limit the range of certain models, everything else you said is mischaracterization, misrepresentation, and lies. They saw opportunity in offering different ranged batteries of the same model, however the cost to produce two different battery capacities was too high. Instead of hiding this fact from the consumer, they instead offer it as an upgrade path if you one day have a need for the additional range. This sort of thing is done all of the time in manufacturing to streamline costs. They even do it with their Autopilot system, all Model 3s come with the same sensor package but the feature itself is unavailable unless you pay to unlock it. There's an advantage to doing this in that you do not have to guess at what consumer demand will be because you can lock/unlock features as needed in software based on consumer demand.
- tempestn 8y ago
  Seems like a stretch to (repeatedly) characterize your parent's post as a "lie". You're both characterizing the same practice in different ways. I'm inclined to agree with everything else you said (although I dislike the barriers to independent maintenance of Teslas in general), but the parent's post was a spin, not a lie.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    Calling it ransom isn't spin, it's disingenuous. They paid for x range and received x range. They were given a standing offer to increase that range for a cost significantly less than the cost of replacing or physically upgrading the battery. Now if they had paid for 120kwh batteries and received 120kwh batteries that would only deliver 100kwh of range then we'd be having and entirely different conversation.
    - jtbayly 8y ago
      But they did. They paid for and received larger capacity batteries in their vehicles that are artificially hampered to a lower capacity.
      - Latteland 8y ago
        They also stopped doing this practice, the new mid range m 3 have fewer batteries and are not software upgradeable. Is this better? Not sure.
        arcticbull 8y ago
        Net-net probably? Less batteries, lower weight, better performance, lower environmental impact from the waste of mining and throwing away that extra lithium you didn't pay to unlock...
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        If you buy a 4 piece of chicken nuggets at McDonalds and they're out of 4 piece boxes so they put your 4 nuggets in a 9 piece box for you, have they cheated you out of 5 nuggets? No. Then why, if you pay for 100 kWh capacity, and they give it to you in a battery capable of 120 kWh capacity are they suddenly cheating you? Did you pay for the higher capacity? No. Did you get the capacity you paid for? Yes. Are you able to buy up to the higher capacity? Yes.
        ddingus 8y ago
        They put 6 nuggets in the 4 nugget box. You paid to eat 4. Those other two cost a little extra to eat. You can't eat them, until you pay for a catalyst that renders them edible.
        cptskippy 8y ago
        That's one way to look at it but it belies the fact that the box was designed and intended for 6, not 4. They didn't force and extra 2 in the box, it's not out of spec.
- Drdrdrq 8y ago
  What you wrote basically confirms what GP said, you are just judging it differently.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    The behavior isn't ransom. The customer didn't buy a 100kwh battery and only received 80kwh. They never had a 300 mile range and they didn't suddenly lose 50 miles of range unless they paid extra. They received the performance they paid for and the option to increase that performance for a cost less than full replacement of the battery.
- wnevets 8y ago
  So DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    I'm not a lawyer but I would say so. The question isn't what they did but rather is it ransom or wrong?
    - quadrangle 8y ago
      Let's clear up a misunderstanding: ransoms aren't necessarily and always wrong. There's indeed some implication that way, but you could just as well argue that this type of ransom is justified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom_model_in_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom...
- mcdevilkiller 8y ago
  Every company does this. It reminds me of Casio and their calculators. You can "hack" some of them just by painting a wire with a pencil, and it unlocks features of more advanced ones.
- tintor 8y ago
  Will this ruling now allow Tesla owners to fix this firmware range limitation of their cars?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    I don't think so because it's not a fix because nothing is broken. Now if the 75 kWh battery pack degrades to say 59 kWh of capacity and you only get 47 kWh then I think it becomes a question of: Did Tesla sell you a 75 kWh pack that will only deliver 80% capacity? Or did Tesla sell you 60 kWh of power? I would say it's the later and you're with-in your right to circumvent the DRM and boost your failing pack back up to 60 kWh or less.
- cronix 8y ago
  > This sort of thing is done all of the time in manufacturing to streamline costs. A good example is Intel and chip manufacturers locking their cpus to a specific frequency when they are capable of higher so they don't have to manufacture the same cpu with different frequencies.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    That's a bit different, right? CPUs are binned based on their ability to perform at higher frequencies / not be defective. They're turned into different 'products' so that less-than-ideal parts can still be sold instead of thrown out. 4-core CPUs may be 6-core CPUs where 1 or 2 cores are physically defective pieces of silicon. Sometimes, especially as a process matures, there's too few defective parts, so they take some of the higher performing parts out of the good bin and throw them in with the lower performance ones to meet demand. This seems more wasteful because you have to mine extra lithium, manufacture extra batteries, install them, haul them around -- and this makes your car perform worse. All on the off chance someone later decides to buy up to the extra-power version? One's a great way to use extra parts that would have been scrapped. The other's just wasteful...
    - tolien 8y ago
      Intel and AMD have sold hardware as lower SKUs than binned in order to meet demand too. Intel’s also sold upgrades [1] that unlocked features that were already in the CPU. I guess the closer analogy to CPU binning would be if they found a fault in a P100’s batteries and sold it as a P85 instead of replacing the battery. CPUs aren’t a great analogy though, since the unused material in a Xeon-E that failed binning and became an i3 is pretty minimal. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Upgrade_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Upgrade_Service
      - xxs 8y ago
        also battery packs have nom trivial weight that affects both performance and range.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  So, you agree with everything quadrangle said, and that means he's lying?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    It's not ransom, it's giving the customer what requested at the price they agreed to pay. And the added bonus of a cheaper than replacing the whole battery upgrade option in the future. They didn't sell them a 300 mile range then knock it down to 250 when they rolled off the lot. They didn't send them a letter saying "if you want your range back send $$$ by 10pm tomorrow." The customer paid for 250 miles, they provided a car that could go 250 miles and additionally said "if you would like to upgrade to 300 miles we can do that for less than the cost of a full battery replacement."
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  How would you feel about a regular petrol car having extended range as an option, but you knew the shorter range model had exactly the same tank but the fuel gauge was calibrated differently, and the fuel pump stopped pumping before the tank was really empty.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    The differentiator the consumer is paying for is range, not # of cells in the battery. If you buy a 2ghz CPU and it turns out it can run at 2.5ghz but is locked at 2ghz, are you being cheated or getting what you paid for?
    - geggam 8y ago
      If you buy a car with a speed limiter are you being cheated or can you remove it ? This ruling says you have the right to remove that limit.
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        I'm not arguing your question. I am calling it a lie to say Tesla was ransoming extended range. They weren't ransoming anything. They gave the customer the range they paid for and never took anything away.
        quadrangle 8y ago
        I said in another comment: ransom is the part you do after you took something. It doesn't describe the taking part. The context here is more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom_model_in_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom...
        cptskippy 8y ago
        And my point is that nothing was taken, therefore it cannot be ransomed. This isn't a Threshold Pledge System either because there's no contracted good being withheld.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  For some reason I can appreciate the adaptive cruise control being an optional extra, as they've had to build and maintain the software for it. The battery / range thing no so much.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    If half your potential customers are unwilling to pay for a higher range option but will purchase a lower range model for a reduced price that still nets a profit for the same fixed battery cost, what do you do? Offer a lower range option. If the cost of retooling a line to make 2 battery types, or setting up a new line from scratch results in a greater cost per unit, regardless of capacity, than 1 line producing the single high capacity battery then why make two battery types? Are you saying they should just offer only the higher capacity battery at a lower price or just tell the lower range customers to fuck off with their money? What if you could satisfy both potential customers and offer the lower range customers the option to upgrade in the future at a cost lower than replacement of the whole battery? What if you could also offer them a good will gesture of added range if they're fleeing natural disasters? Is that ransom? Would you be outraged to discover your printer's print speed was artificially capped to not erode the market for a faster model? Or that your CPU wasn't running at it's maximum potential? Does it only become outrageous or random when the manufacturer offers you the option to unlock it's full potential? What about Labor? If you pay a yard service $50 to clean your property and they do it in 4 hours but your neighbor, with a 2x larger yard pays $75 and they still complete the work in 4 hours. Do you demand a lower rate? Faster service? Both? The fact of the matter is if you paid for 100kwh battery and they give you a 120kwh battery that will only put out 100kwh are you being cheated or held at ransom? Or are you just getting what you paid for? Why are you entitled to get anything more than what you agree to buy?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I upvoted this comment, just so you know. You've made some good points, food for thought for me.
      - 8y ago
- mastazi 8y ago
  >(parent) That's a lie OK let's see where is this lie... > (grandparent): Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range > (parent): Yes they have DRM in place to artificially limit the range of certain models OK no lie here. So it must be in the second part of GP's comment? > (gp): until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances > (p): they instead offer it as an upgrade path if you one day have a need for the additional range So you just confirmed everything from GP's comment, where are the "mischaracterization, misrepresentation, and lies" you speak of?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    The word ransom.
    - apatters 8y ago
      I think it's more accurate (certainly more charitable) to call his statement hyperbole. Calling it a ransom seems like an exaggeration but not really a lie. But if you accuse him of lying when he's not then you are lying :)
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        Ransom is when someone takes from you and only returns what they took when you meet their demands. Tesla didn't take anything from the buyers of the car owners who paid for 60 kWh capacity. It gave them what they wanted, it just happened to delivery it in a vessel that could hold 75 kWh. Rather, the car buyers were offered the option to purchase the exact same car at a reduced price because it was artificially limited to 60 kWh. I'm not clear what people are upset about. Are they saying Tesla should have made 60 kWh packs or sold the 75 kWh packs at two prices and hoped most people would opt to pay more money? In the former scenario an owner of a 60 kWh car would have to replace the entire battery to upgrade or trade in their car to a higher capacity if they found they needed it. In either case their costs would be higher than just paying to unlock the restricted capacity. In the later scenario Tesla loses money because no one opts for pay them more money for the same product.
SquishyPanda23 8y ago
> Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances! I think the effect of this sort of DRM is underestimated in many conversations about post-scarcity. People don't seem to appreciate that cryptography will create programmatic scarcity where previously we only had scarcity due to physical laws.
- SturgeonsLaw 8y ago
  The bright side is that it's easier to crack software than it is to find new mineral ore deposits
Latteland 8y ago
In the past tesla sold the same hardware & number of batteries in two car models, but saved 10k in price for the shorter range one; and you could upgrade to the longer range by paying more. Just like for CPUs. In the new mid-range m 3 they have fewer batteries than the long range. Tesla eventually stopped selling the software upgradeable one, maybe because they bugged people.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

cptskippy 8y ago

> Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances! That's a lie. Yes they have DRM in place to artificially limit the range of certain models, everything else you said is mischaracterization, misrepresentation, and lies. They saw opportunity in offering different ranged batteries of the same model, however the cost to produce two different battery capacities was too high. Instead of hiding this fact from the consumer, they instead offer it as an upgrade path if you one day have a need for the additional range. This sort of thing is done all of the time in manufacturing to streamline costs. They even do it with their Autopilot system, all Model 3s come with the same sensor package but the feature itself is unavailable unless you pay to unlock it. There's an advantage to doing this in that you do not have to guess at what consumer demand will be because you can lock/unlock features as needed in software based on consumer demand.

tempestn 8y ago
Seems like a stretch to (repeatedly) characterize your parent's post as a "lie". You're both characterizing the same practice in different ways. I'm inclined to agree with everything else you said (although I dislike the barriers to independent maintenance of Teslas in general), but the parent's post was a spin, not a lie.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  Calling it ransom isn't spin, it's disingenuous. They paid for x range and received x range. They were given a standing offer to increase that range for a cost significantly less than the cost of replacing or physically upgrading the battery. Now if they had paid for 120kwh batteries and received 120kwh batteries that would only deliver 100kwh of range then we'd be having and entirely different conversation.
  - jtbayly 8y ago
    But they did. They paid for and received larger capacity batteries in their vehicles that are artificially hampered to a lower capacity.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      They also stopped doing this practice, the new mid range m 3 have fewer batteries and are not software upgradeable. Is this better? Not sure.
      - arcticbull 8y ago
        Net-net probably? Less batteries, lower weight, better performance, lower environmental impact from the waste of mining and throwing away that extra lithium you didn't pay to unlock...
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      If you buy a 4 piece of chicken nuggets at McDonalds and they're out of 4 piece boxes so they put your 4 nuggets in a 9 piece box for you, have they cheated you out of 5 nuggets? No. Then why, if you pay for 100 kWh capacity, and they give it to you in a battery capable of 120 kWh capacity are they suddenly cheating you? Did you pay for the higher capacity? No. Did you get the capacity you paid for? Yes. Are you able to buy up to the higher capacity? Yes.
      - ddingus 8y ago
        They put 6 nuggets in the 4 nugget box. You paid to eat 4. Those other two cost a little extra to eat. You can't eat them, until you pay for a catalyst that renders them edible.
        cptskippy 8y ago
        That's one way to look at it but it belies the fact that the box was designed and intended for 6, not 4. They didn't force and extra 2 in the box, it's not out of spec.
Drdrdrq 8y ago
What you wrote basically confirms what GP said, you are just judging it differently.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  The behavior isn't ransom. The customer didn't buy a 100kwh battery and only received 80kwh. They never had a 300 mile range and they didn't suddenly lose 50 miles of range unless they paid extra. They received the performance they paid for and the option to increase that performance for a cost less than full replacement of the battery.
wnevets 8y ago
So DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  I'm not a lawyer but I would say so. The question isn't what they did but rather is it ransom or wrong?
  - quadrangle 8y ago
    Let's clear up a misunderstanding: ransoms aren't necessarily and always wrong. There's indeed some implication that way, but you could just as well argue that this type of ransom is justified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom_model_in_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom...
mcdevilkiller 8y ago
Every company does this. It reminds me of Casio and their calculators. You can "hack" some of them just by painting a wire with a pencil, and it unlocks features of more advanced ones.
tintor 8y ago
Will this ruling now allow Tesla owners to fix this firmware range limitation of their cars?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  I don't think so because it's not a fix because nothing is broken. Now if the 75 kWh battery pack degrades to say 59 kWh of capacity and you only get 47 kWh then I think it becomes a question of: Did Tesla sell you a 75 kWh pack that will only deliver 80% capacity? Or did Tesla sell you 60 kWh of power? I would say it's the later and you're with-in your right to circumvent the DRM and boost your failing pack back up to 60 kWh or less.
cronix 8y ago
> This sort of thing is done all of the time in manufacturing to streamline costs. A good example is Intel and chip manufacturers locking their cpus to a specific frequency when they are capable of higher so they don't have to manufacture the same cpu with different frequencies.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  That's a bit different, right? CPUs are binned based on their ability to perform at higher frequencies / not be defective. They're turned into different 'products' so that less-than-ideal parts can still be sold instead of thrown out. 4-core CPUs may be 6-core CPUs where 1 or 2 cores are physically defective pieces of silicon. Sometimes, especially as a process matures, there's too few defective parts, so they take some of the higher performing parts out of the good bin and throw them in with the lower performance ones to meet demand. This seems more wasteful because you have to mine extra lithium, manufacture extra batteries, install them, haul them around -- and this makes your car perform worse. All on the off chance someone later decides to buy up to the extra-power version? One's a great way to use extra parts that would have been scrapped. The other's just wasteful...
  - tolien 8y ago
    Intel and AMD have sold hardware as lower SKUs than binned in order to meet demand too. Intel’s also sold upgrades [1] that unlocked features that were already in the CPU. I guess the closer analogy to CPU binning would be if they found a fault in a P100’s batteries and sold it as a P85 instead of replacing the battery. CPUs aren’t a great analogy though, since the unused material in a Xeon-E that failed binning and became an i3 is pretty minimal. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Upgrade_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Upgrade_Service
    - xxs 8y ago
      also battery packs have nom trivial weight that affects both performance and range.
thaumasiotes 8y ago
So, you agree with everything quadrangle said, and that means he's lying?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  It's not ransom, it's giving the customer what requested at the price they agreed to pay. And the added bonus of a cheaper than replacing the whole battery upgrade option in the future. They didn't sell them a 300 mile range then knock it down to 250 when they rolled off the lot. They didn't send them a letter saying "if you want your range back send $$$ by 10pm tomorrow." The customer paid for 250 miles, they provided a car that could go 250 miles and additionally said "if you would like to upgrade to 300 miles we can do that for less than the cost of a full battery replacement."
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
How would you feel about a regular petrol car having extended range as an option, but you knew the shorter range model had exactly the same tank but the fuel gauge was calibrated differently, and the fuel pump stopped pumping before the tank was really empty.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  The differentiator the consumer is paying for is range, not # of cells in the battery. If you buy a 2ghz CPU and it turns out it can run at 2.5ghz but is locked at 2ghz, are you being cheated or getting what you paid for?
  - geggam 8y ago
    If you buy a car with a speed limiter are you being cheated or can you remove it ? This ruling says you have the right to remove that limit.
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      I'm not arguing your question. I am calling it a lie to say Tesla was ransoming extended range. They weren't ransoming anything. They gave the customer the range they paid for and never took anything away.
      - quadrangle 8y ago
        I said in another comment: ransom is the part you do after you took something. It doesn't describe the taking part. The context here is more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom_model_in_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system#Ransom...
        cptskippy 8y ago
        And my point is that nothing was taken, therefore it cannot be ransomed. This isn't a Threshold Pledge System either because there's no contracted good being withheld.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
For some reason I can appreciate the adaptive cruise control being an optional extra, as they've had to build and maintain the software for it. The battery / range thing no so much.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  If half your potential customers are unwilling to pay for a higher range option but will purchase a lower range model for a reduced price that still nets a profit for the same fixed battery cost, what do you do? Offer a lower range option. If the cost of retooling a line to make 2 battery types, or setting up a new line from scratch results in a greater cost per unit, regardless of capacity, than 1 line producing the single high capacity battery then why make two battery types? Are you saying they should just offer only the higher capacity battery at a lower price or just tell the lower range customers to fuck off with their money? What if you could satisfy both potential customers and offer the lower range customers the option to upgrade in the future at a cost lower than replacement of the whole battery? What if you could also offer them a good will gesture of added range if they're fleeing natural disasters? Is that ransom? Would you be outraged to discover your printer's print speed was artificially capped to not erode the market for a faster model? Or that your CPU wasn't running at it's maximum potential? Does it only become outrageous or random when the manufacturer offers you the option to unlock it's full potential? What about Labor? If you pay a yard service $50 to clean your property and they do it in 4 hours but your neighbor, with a 2x larger yard pays $75 and they still complete the work in 4 hours. Do you demand a lower rate? Faster service? Both? The fact of the matter is if you paid for 100kwh battery and they give you a 120kwh battery that will only put out 100kwh are you being cheated or held at ransom? Or are you just getting what you paid for? Why are you entitled to get anything more than what you agree to buy?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    I upvoted this comment, just so you know. You've made some good points, food for thought for me.
    - 8y ago
mastazi 8y ago
>(parent) That's a lie OK let's see where is this lie... > (grandparent): Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range > (parent): Yes they have DRM in place to artificially limit the range of certain models OK no lie here. So it must be in the second part of GP's comment? > (gp): until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances > (p): they instead offer it as an upgrade path if you one day have a need for the additional range So you just confirmed everything from GP's comment, where are the "mischaracterization, misrepresentation, and lies" you speak of?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  The word ransom.
  - apatters 8y ago
    I think it's more accurate (certainly more charitable) to call his statement hyperbole. Calling it a ransom seems like an exaggeration but not really a lie. But if you accuse him of lying when he's not then you are lying :)
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      Ransom is when someone takes from you and only returns what they took when you meet their demands. Tesla didn't take anything from the buyers of the car owners who paid for 60 kWh capacity. It gave them what they wanted, it just happened to delivery it in a vessel that could hold 75 kWh. Rather, the car buyers were offered the option to purchase the exact same car at a reduced price because it was artificially limited to 60 kWh. I'm not clear what people are upset about. Are they saying Tesla should have made 60 kWh packs or sold the 75 kWh packs at two prices and hoped most people would opt to pay more money? In the former scenario an owner of a 60 kWh car would have to replace the entire battery to upgrade or trade in their car to a higher capacity if they found they needed it. In either case their costs would be higher than just paying to unlock the restricted capacity. In the later scenario Tesla loses money because no one opts for pay them more money for the same product.

SquishyPanda23 8y ago

> Tesla set up DRM to artificially limit the driving range of their cars until you pay them a ransom to simply let your car drive longer distances! I think the effect of this sort of DRM is underestimated in many conversations about post-scarcity. People don't seem to appreciate that cryptography will create programmatic scarcity where previously we only had scarcity due to physical laws.

SturgeonsLaw 8y ago
The bright side is that it's easier to crack software than it is to find new mineral ore deposits

Latteland 8y ago

In the past tesla sold the same hardware & number of batteries in two car models, but saved 10k in price for the shorter range one; and you could upgrade to the longer range by paying more. Just like for CPUs. In the new mid-range m 3 they have fewer batteries than the long range. Tesla eventually stopped selling the software upgradeable one, maybe because they bugged people.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]