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The problem is that is an infinitely arbitrarily moving goalpost. The issue isn't even clear with in the specifics of Rubin's situation. If someone directly rep

The problem is that is an infinitely arbitrarily moving goalpost. The issue isn't even clear with in the specifics of Rubin's situation. If someone directly reports to you then the answer is obviously no. But from the article it seems like some of these relationships which were inappropriate were with people who were only tangentially in his chain of command. And some not at all. What happens when you start at the same level but are promoted to different levels? If you're responsible for making your company Billions of dollars a year the way Andy Rubin is you can easily argue he shouldn't be able to date anyone in that company at all without there being an unacceptable power dynamic. But as someone worth close to a billion dollars that's probably true of any relationship he's in. Google has literally millions of employees, is it ok to say he can't date any of them? That's why I said it's a tricky issue with no good answers. It's easy to say people should know this or know that but the fact is different people know and believe different things. You have to have a codified policy. And if you can't codify a policy that works in every case then you don't have a good one.

munificent 8y ago
> What happens when you start at the same level but are promoted to different levels? If through promotion or re-org one partner ends up in the subtree of the other, either end the relationship or find a new position for one of the two people. > If you're responsible for making your company Billions of dollars a year the way Andy Rubin is you can easily argue he shouldn't be able to date anyone in that company at all without there being an unacceptable power dynamic. So be it! Being in charge of thousands of people and billions of dollars is an incredible responsibility. That kind of responsibility requires discipline and sacrifice. If you want the freedom to fuck anyone you want in the org chart, don't try to climb to the top of the org chart. > Google has literally millions of employees, is it ok to say he can't date any of them? Thousands, not millions. And, yes, that's totally OK. Any executive who doesn't like that can spend some of the millions of dollars making themselves feel better. Seriously, if you're worth +$100M and you can't find a date outside of the office, you've got bigger problems than the org chart. > You have to have a codified policy. Google has a codified policy, which every employee signs that they agree to. It says you can't date people when there is a reporting chain between them. There are seven billion people on Earth. Executives can find someone outside of their reporting structure to fall in love with. This isn't hard. The only problem here is that the kind of people who want to be in charge of thousands of people and billions of dollars are often also the kind of people who want lots of power and to have the rules not apply to them.
- dcole2929 8y ago
  > Google has a codified policy Google has a policy which they don't follow all the time because there are situations where they don't feel it properly addresses the situations to the satisfaction of all parties. That is a policy that doesn't work. I don't disagree with a lot of your points here. I'm just pointing out that people are trying to make what is a very complex issue sound simple. If it was simple the same problem wouldn't keep coming up. > There are seven billion people on Earth. Executives can find someone outside of their reporting structure to fall in love with. This isn't hard. And yet you don't control who you fall in love with. And everything we know tells us that you are far more likely to see 1-200 of those 7 billion people every day. And incredibly more likely to have things in common with and fall in love with someone in that much smaller group. I think the problem here is that people are still people whether they are rich/successful or not. My policy is I don't date coworkers superior, inferior, or otherwise. But I think it's foolish to think that's a policy that everyone can and will adhere to. And that is really the only policy properly addresses all the issue with office romances.
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    > And yet you don't control who you fall in love with. Tough luck. If forcing people to choose between their job and their love is the price to pay to stop these sleezeballs, then so be it.
  - brown9-2 8y ago
    The policy doesn’t work for Google because they bend the rules for executives that they never would for rank-and-file employees.
jahlove 8y ago
> Google has literally millions of employees Literally millions? More like 75,000: https://www.recode.net/2017/7/24/16022210/alphabet-google-employment-employees-doubled-headcount https://www.recode.net/2017/7/24/16022210/alphabet-google-em...
wpietri 8y ago
It is neither arbitrary nor moving. If one person has power over another in a corporate context, the senior person should not date the junior person. A pretty simple way to think about it: who in your company would you be afraid to be frank with if you knew it would upset them? Those people shouldn't be allowed to date you. That leaves billions of people for each of you to date, so I'm not seeing a big problem. Are there edge cases and nuanced situations? Sure. Is that true about any important rule? Sure. E.g., look at your company's conflict of interest policy. For the sake of clarity, a bunch of relatively arbitrary lines will be drawn. But that doesn't produce the same hand-wringing and rushes to the fainting couches that a rule like this does. I'll leave the reason why as an exercise for the reader.
- camelite 8y ago
  > the senior person should not date the junior person What if the junior person realllllly wants to date the senior person. And the senior person kinda wouldn't mind giving it a go. Should the junior be reprimanded for their outrageously flirtatious behaviour? Perhaps we should have a committee draft an exhaustive set of rules that unambiguously eliminate this danger.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    My concern here is abuse of power, so I would not make any additional rules in this case. If the junior person is bothering the senior person that's unprofessional conduct and so can be dealt with normally. If the senior person isn't bothered, I don't see why it's any business of the company's.

munificent 8y ago

> What happens when you start at the same level but are promoted to different levels? If through promotion or re-org one partner ends up in the subtree of the other, either end the relationship or find a new position for one of the two people. > If you're responsible for making your company Billions of dollars a year the way Andy Rubin is you can easily argue he shouldn't be able to date anyone in that company at all without there being an unacceptable power dynamic. So be it! Being in charge of thousands of people and billions of dollars is an incredible responsibility. That kind of responsibility requires discipline and sacrifice. If you want the freedom to fuck anyone you want in the org chart, don't try to climb to the top of the org chart. > Google has literally millions of employees, is it ok to say he can't date any of them? Thousands, not millions. And, yes, that's totally OK. Any executive who doesn't like that can spend some of the millions of dollars making themselves feel better. Seriously, if you're worth +$100M and you can't find a date outside of the office, you've got bigger problems than the org chart. > You have to have a codified policy. Google has a codified policy, which every employee signs that they agree to. It says you can't date people when there is a reporting chain between them. There are seven billion people on Earth. Executives can find someone outside of their reporting structure to fall in love with. This isn't hard. The only problem here is that the kind of people who want to be in charge of thousands of people and billions of dollars are often also the kind of people who want lots of power and to have the rules not apply to them.

dcole2929 8y ago
> Google has a codified policy Google has a policy which they don't follow all the time because there are situations where they don't feel it properly addresses the situations to the satisfaction of all parties. That is a policy that doesn't work. I don't disagree with a lot of your points here. I'm just pointing out that people are trying to make what is a very complex issue sound simple. If it was simple the same problem wouldn't keep coming up. > There are seven billion people on Earth. Executives can find someone outside of their reporting structure to fall in love with. This isn't hard. And yet you don't control who you fall in love with. And everything we know tells us that you are far more likely to see 1-200 of those 7 billion people every day. And incredibly more likely to have things in common with and fall in love with someone in that much smaller group. I think the problem here is that people are still people whether they are rich/successful or not. My policy is I don't date coworkers superior, inferior, or otherwise. But I think it's foolish to think that's a policy that everyone can and will adhere to. And that is really the only policy properly addresses all the issue with office romances.
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  > And yet you don't control who you fall in love with. Tough luck. If forcing people to choose between their job and their love is the price to pay to stop these sleezeballs, then so be it.
- brown9-2 8y ago
  The policy doesn’t work for Google because they bend the rules for executives that they never would for rank-and-file employees.

jahlove 8y ago

> Google has literally millions of employees Literally millions? More like 75,000: https://www.recode.net/2017/7/24/16022210/alphabet-google-employment-employees-doubled-headcount https://www.recode.net/2017/7/24/16022210/alphabet-google-em...

wpietri 8y ago

It is neither arbitrary nor moving. If one person has power over another in a corporate context, the senior person should not date the junior person. A pretty simple way to think about it: who in your company would you be afraid to be frank with if you knew it would upset them? Those people shouldn't be allowed to date you. That leaves billions of people for each of you to date, so I'm not seeing a big problem. Are there edge cases and nuanced situations? Sure. Is that true about any important rule? Sure. E.g., look at your company's conflict of interest policy. For the sake of clarity, a bunch of relatively arbitrary lines will be drawn. But that doesn't produce the same hand-wringing and rushes to the fainting couches that a rule like this does. I'll leave the reason why as an exercise for the reader.

camelite 8y ago
> the senior person should not date the junior person What if the junior person realllllly wants to date the senior person. And the senior person kinda wouldn't mind giving it a go. Should the junior be reprimanded for their outrageously flirtatious behaviour? Perhaps we should have a committee draft an exhaustive set of rules that unambiguously eliminate this danger.
- wpietri 8y ago
  My concern here is abuse of power, so I would not make any additional rules in this case. If the junior person is bothering the senior person that's unprofessional conduct and so can be dealt with normally. If the senior person isn't bothered, I don't see why it's any business of the company's.