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I was not expecting the massively negative responses here. For a site called “Hacker News,” you folks sure seem to stand in complete opposition to any hacking t

I was not expecting the massively negative responses here. For a site called “Hacker News,” you folks sure seem to stand in complete opposition to any hacking that’s outside your comfort zone.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tom_ 8y ago
HN does occasionally have an outbreak of good sense.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
People are afraid of stuff they don't know about. Most of us work in offices and don't even own a 3/8 socket set. (Of course they have no problem with some dude who barely reads English, or whatever language the service literature is in, performing service on their vehicle because he's a "professional"). There's also the fact that with physical objects you can't just revert them if you do it wrong like you can with code. People here are used to having that capability. Working with things where you don't have a near-zero cost option to revert is going to make a lot of people here uneasy. There's a vocal minority here who just hates cars to begin with and has no problem saying things that feed those fears. Then there's the fact that lot of people here are afraid of liability so they start going crazy when any entity that isn't a multi-million dollar company they can sue starts modifying anything tangentially involving safety even if the risks involved are on the order of being eaten by a shark on dry land in Kansas. Tl;DR the subject matter and the user-base of HN react in a way that brings out more negativity than each one could normally on its own.
- mikeash 8y ago
  This isn’t my story, I’m just an early upvoter hoping to come back to find interesting commentary instead of a bunch of whining. I think your assessment is correct. Adding even more negativity to the mix, a lot of HN users are skeptical of Tesla in general and Autopilot in particular.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >Adding even more negativity to the mix, a lot of HN users are skeptical of Tesla in general and Autopilot in particular. With autopilot in particular we know how that sausage is made.
  - danso 8y ago
    Autopilot continues to be advertised [0] as if it were fully or even near-autonomous driving, so I think those of us who know better are reasonable to start from a position of skepticism. [0] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I don’t see how Autopilot marketing is at all relevant here.
- alibarber 8y ago
  Gives a whole new meaning to 'move fast and break things'. But seriously I find the backlash so interesting and I think it is mainly for the reasons you describe. We all know how bug-laden much of the software that's shipped is, but it doesn't really matter because (for the most part) it's easy to iterate, issue an update - to the point that people who run un-updated software are considered foolish, etc etc. I think we should remember that actual _engineers_ are out there who design and make the bridges, cars and buildings that keep us alive who don't have this luxury. This guy seems like one of them and is clearly skilled (you can see that his workmanship looks good and he's taking care in these photos) and should be respected in my opinion.
- j2bax 8y ago
  I'm not sure I understand why someones English reading comprehension should matter when it comes to servicing a vehicle if they are an experienced mechanic at a reputable shop.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Because that's the language that service literature in the US typically available in. In my opinion literacy at all is optional for 99.9% of automotive work but the kind of people who will pearl clutch over an enthusiast rebuilding calipers in their garage will probably not be all that pleased to learn that it's not uncommon for someone who can barely read the service literature to be servicing vehicles and I thought it was worth mentioning.
jandrese 8y ago
I think you'll find similar pushback to any form of hacking that endangers other people's lives. If we were talking about removing the safety valves on a steam locomotive so it could run hotter and faster you would see similar pushback from people who know what boiler explosions can do.
- mikeash 8y ago
  There are stories on here from time to time about homemade radio systems of various kinds. The risk to life (interfering with aircraft or police radios, for example) sometimes gets mentioned but is never the focus.
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    holy whataboutism man
    - mikeash 8y ago
      That is... not what that term means.
calyth2018 8y ago
Maybe it has something to do with grafting a lane-keeping cruise control system onto a multi-ton vehicle with lithium onboard, and testing on the open road being a Bad Idea™? If he was testing at the track, at least he's only risking people that he knows. If it gets something as small as a fender bender, and his insurance gets a whiff of this, you'll bet that they'll try hard to null-and-void the coverage.
- mikeash 8y ago
  Millions of people graft ad hoc, poorly designed lane keeping and cruise control systems into their cars every day. The result is tens of thousands of fatalities each year in the US alone. Yet we seem to be ok with that.
  - chairmanmow 8y ago
    I think this statement requires a source, millions of people are hacking auto-pilot like features each day, causing tens of thousands of fatalities? I don't know if I'd be ok with that, but I don't think it's true.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I said they are grafting “ad hoc, poorly designed lane keeping and cruise control systems into their cars”, not specifically Autopilot. This is just a colorful way of describing the act of sitting in the driver’s seat. In this case, a human being acts as the lane keeping and cruise control system. It is rather bad at these tasks.
Aloha 8y ago
I don't get it either - the actual risk of this guy testing on the open road is pretty minimal, he could resume control of the car at any point should things have gone sideways. Zero risk often achieves zero results - you have to balance your risk with other factors.

I was not expecting the massively negative responses here. For a site called “Hacker News,” you folks sure seem to stand in complete opposition to any hacking that’s outside your comfort zone.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tom_ 8y ago

HN does occasionally have an outbreak of good sense.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

People are afraid of stuff they don't know about. Most of us work in offices and don't even own a 3/8 socket set. (Of course they have no problem with some dude who barely reads English, or whatever language the service literature is in, performing service on their vehicle because he's a "professional"). There's also the fact that with physical objects you can't just revert them if you do it wrong like you can with code. People here are used to having that capability. Working with things where you don't have a near-zero cost option to revert is going to make a lot of people here uneasy. There's a vocal minority here who just hates cars to begin with and has no problem saying things that feed those fears. Then there's the fact that lot of people here are afraid of liability so they start going crazy when any entity that isn't a multi-million dollar company they can sue starts modifying anything tangentially involving safety even if the risks involved are on the order of being eaten by a shark on dry land in Kansas. Tl;DR the subject matter and the user-base of HN react in a way that brings out more negativity than each one could normally on its own.

mikeash 8y ago
This isn’t my story, I’m just an early upvoter hoping to come back to find interesting commentary instead of a bunch of whining. I think your assessment is correct. Adding even more negativity to the mix, a lot of HN users are skeptical of Tesla in general and Autopilot in particular.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >Adding even more negativity to the mix, a lot of HN users are skeptical of Tesla in general and Autopilot in particular. With autopilot in particular we know how that sausage is made.
- danso 8y ago
  Autopilot continues to be advertised [0] as if it were fully or even near-autonomous driving, so I think those of us who know better are reasonable to start from a position of skepticism. [0] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
  - mikeash 8y ago
    I don’t see how Autopilot marketing is at all relevant here.
alibarber 8y ago
Gives a whole new meaning to 'move fast and break things'. But seriously I find the backlash so interesting and I think it is mainly for the reasons you describe. We all know how bug-laden much of the software that's shipped is, but it doesn't really matter because (for the most part) it's easy to iterate, issue an update - to the point that people who run un-updated software are considered foolish, etc etc. I think we should remember that actual _engineers_ are out there who design and make the bridges, cars and buildings that keep us alive who don't have this luxury. This guy seems like one of them and is clearly skilled (you can see that his workmanship looks good and he's taking care in these photos) and should be respected in my opinion.
j2bax 8y ago
I'm not sure I understand why someones English reading comprehension should matter when it comes to servicing a vehicle if they are an experienced mechanic at a reputable shop.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Because that's the language that service literature in the US typically available in. In my opinion literacy at all is optional for 99.9% of automotive work but the kind of people who will pearl clutch over an enthusiast rebuilding calipers in their garage will probably not be all that pleased to learn that it's not uncommon for someone who can barely read the service literature to be servicing vehicles and I thought it was worth mentioning.

jandrese 8y ago

I think you'll find similar pushback to any form of hacking that endangers other people's lives. If we were talking about removing the safety valves on a steam locomotive so it could run hotter and faster you would see similar pushback from people who know what boiler explosions can do.

mikeash 8y ago
There are stories on here from time to time about homemade radio systems of various kinds. The risk to life (interfering with aircraft or police radios, for example) sometimes gets mentioned but is never the focus.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  holy whataboutism man
  - mikeash 8y ago
    That is... not what that term means.

calyth2018 8y ago

Maybe it has something to do with grafting a lane-keeping cruise control system onto a multi-ton vehicle with lithium onboard, and testing on the open road being a Bad Idea™? If he was testing at the track, at least he's only risking people that he knows. If it gets something as small as a fender bender, and his insurance gets a whiff of this, you'll bet that they'll try hard to null-and-void the coverage.

mikeash 8y ago
Millions of people graft ad hoc, poorly designed lane keeping and cruise control systems into their cars every day. The result is tens of thousands of fatalities each year in the US alone. Yet we seem to be ok with that.
- chairmanmow 8y ago
  I think this statement requires a source, millions of people are hacking auto-pilot like features each day, causing tens of thousands of fatalities? I don't know if I'd be ok with that, but I don't think it's true.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    I said they are grafting “ad hoc, poorly designed lane keeping and cruise control systems into their cars”, not specifically Autopilot. This is just a colorful way of describing the act of sitting in the driver’s seat. In this case, a human being acts as the lane keeping and cruise control system. It is rather bad at these tasks.

Aloha 8y ago

I don't get it either - the actual risk of this guy testing on the open road is pretty minimal, he could resume control of the car at any point should things have gone sideways. Zero risk often achieves zero results - you have to balance your risk with other factors.