5 ms·

Almost all of science and philosophy was done in Arabic during the middle ages so "1.4k years" is an overestimate. Without the Arab and Muslim scholarship much

by amasad 8y ago

Almost all of science and philosophy was done in Arabic during the middle ages so "1.4k years" is an overestimate. Without the Arab and Muslim scholarship much of Greek/Roman wisdom would be lost. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Classics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Cl...

thisrod 8y ago
> Without the Arab and Muslim scholarship much of Greek/Roman wisdom would be lost. I've just been on a holiday in Venice and Florence, which made me question that standard wisdom, as I learnt more about Venice and Constantinople. The most important effect of those texts, I guess, was the Italian Renaissance. Petrarch seems to have found his books by hunting through old piles in attics, and the Venetians got (looted?) theirs directly from the Byzantines. It isn't clear to me that the Arabs had a major role. The Spanish got their classical books from the Moors. But what did they do with those books, and why does that matter?
- thrower123 8y ago
  Venice, certainly, had significant ties to Constantinople, most notably looting the hell out of it in the 4th Crusade in the 1200s.
- gamegoblin 8y ago
  > The Spanish got their classical books from the Moors. But what did they do with those books, and why does that matter? Arguably, had a huge affect in kicking off the Renaissance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators
tehlike 8y ago
Islamic/arabic world could not keep up with the science, unfortunately.
- Scriptor 8y ago
  Imagine if during the height of the Greek golden age most of the largest cities were razed to the ground and their populations systematically exterminated. That means Athens as we knew it would have been reduced to rubble. That's what happened during the Mongol Conquests. The fall of Baghdad alone caused at least several hundred thousand people to be killed. The main library, which had collected countless works over the centuries, was gone. Baghdad was rebuilt, of course. Economically and politically it bounced back since it was still right on the silk road. But scientific study never really recovered there.
  - thrower123 8y ago
    One might, on the other hand, wonder what might have happened if the Mongols hadn't been infected by Islamic schism and dynastic troubles and completed their push through into Mamluk Egypt. As pivotal as Ayn Jalut was, the groundwork for that failure was laid in the religious conversion of [1]Berke and the Golden Horde to Islam. [1] Initially listed his brother Batu, rather than Berke, the first Muslim Khan.
    - Scriptor 8y ago
      Very true! Egypt was able to continue mostly unscathed. Perhaps this indicates that the Arab golden age was in its twilight? Maybe the Mamluks didn't invest in the sciences as much as the Fatimids? And even further west Andalusia was still chugging along. That was definitely an important source of knowledge for the first universities in the rest of Europe.
  - tehlike 8y ago
    I am hoping israel is giving the kick the region needs in terms of scientific progress. They are kicking ass, pushing boundaries. For them, it might have more reasons beyond scientific curiosity and capitalism, it might also be existential.
    - Scriptor 8y ago
      Definitely. Iran already has more in publications in total than Israel, although they're still way behind when looking at the per capita number. Hopefully this trend continues.
sdegutis 8y ago
Both "Zero" and "Cipher" come from the same Arabic word "ṣifr" and whenever I remember that, I tell whoever's near me.
- amasad 8y ago
  Yup cipher comes from sifr which is arabic for zero.
mega_behemoth 8y ago
Those "muslim" scholars were mostly not arab,, and were constantly being accused for heresy. It is smart people that produce science and not Islam. The only science Islam has produced is the magical benefits of drinking camel urine and Hijama. No thanks.
- amasad 8y ago
  >It is smart people that produce science and not Islam Who said anything about Islam generating the science. You're just a bigoted asshole looking for a way to bash islam.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    You write "bigoted", which is often a charge that assumes the person is from outside the Muslim world. Yet within the Muslim world, you can meet plenty of "freethinkers" who will write in a private venue the exact same deprecations of Islam that the OP did. Never underestimate the dislike of Islam found even among some Arabs or Iranians.
  - mega_behemoth 8y ago
    No surprise you quickly started throwing offensive stones. Quickly ran out of sensible logic. Peace upon you.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines yourself, regardless of how another commenter is behaving. That only makes this place worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by amasad 8y ago

thisrod 8y ago

> Without the Arab and Muslim scholarship much of Greek/Roman wisdom would be lost. I've just been on a holiday in Venice and Florence, which made me question that standard wisdom, as I learnt more about Venice and Constantinople. The most important effect of those texts, I guess, was the Italian Renaissance. Petrarch seems to have found his books by hunting through old piles in attics, and the Venetians got (looted?) theirs directly from the Byzantines. It isn't clear to me that the Arabs had a major role. The Spanish got their classical books from the Moors. But what did they do with those books, and why does that matter?

thrower123 8y ago
Venice, certainly, had significant ties to Constantinople, most notably looting the hell out of it in the 4th Crusade in the 1200s.
gamegoblin 8y ago
> The Spanish got their classical books from the Moors. But what did they do with those books, and why does that matter? Arguably, had a huge affect in kicking off the Renaissance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators

tehlike 8y ago

Islamic/arabic world could not keep up with the science, unfortunately.

Scriptor 8y ago
Imagine if during the height of the Greek golden age most of the largest cities were razed to the ground and their populations systematically exterminated. That means Athens as we knew it would have been reduced to rubble. That's what happened during the Mongol Conquests. The fall of Baghdad alone caused at least several hundred thousand people to be killed. The main library, which had collected countless works over the centuries, was gone. Baghdad was rebuilt, of course. Economically and politically it bounced back since it was still right on the silk road. But scientific study never really recovered there.
- thrower123 8y ago
  One might, on the other hand, wonder what might have happened if the Mongols hadn't been infected by Islamic schism and dynastic troubles and completed their push through into Mamluk Egypt. As pivotal as Ayn Jalut was, the groundwork for that failure was laid in the religious conversion of [1]Berke and the Golden Horde to Islam. [1] Initially listed his brother Batu, rather than Berke, the first Muslim Khan.
  - Scriptor 8y ago
    Very true! Egypt was able to continue mostly unscathed. Perhaps this indicates that the Arab golden age was in its twilight? Maybe the Mamluks didn't invest in the sciences as much as the Fatimids? And even further west Andalusia was still chugging along. That was definitely an important source of knowledge for the first universities in the rest of Europe.
- tehlike 8y ago
  I am hoping israel is giving the kick the region needs in terms of scientific progress. They are kicking ass, pushing boundaries. For them, it might have more reasons beyond scientific curiosity and capitalism, it might also be existential.
  - Scriptor 8y ago
    Definitely. Iran already has more in publications in total than Israel, although they're still way behind when looking at the per capita number. Hopefully this trend continues.

sdegutis 8y ago

Both "Zero" and "Cipher" come from the same Arabic word "ṣifr" and whenever I remember that, I tell whoever's near me.

amasad 8y ago
Yup cipher comes from sifr which is arabic for zero.

mega_behemoth 8y ago

Those "muslim" scholars were mostly not arab,, and were constantly being accused for heresy. It is smart people that produce science and not Islam. The only science Islam has produced is the magical benefits of drinking camel urine and Hijama. No thanks.

amasad 8y ago
>It is smart people that produce science and not Islam Who said anything about Islam generating the science. You're just a bigoted asshole looking for a way to bash islam.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  You write "bigoted", which is often a charge that assumes the person is from outside the Muslim world. Yet within the Muslim world, you can meet plenty of "freethinkers" who will write in a private venue the exact same deprecations of Islam that the OP did. Never underestimate the dislike of Islam found even among some Arabs or Iranians.
- mega_behemoth 8y ago
  No surprise you quickly started throwing offensive stones. Quickly ran out of sensible logic. Peace upon you.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines yourself, regardless of how another commenter is behaving. That only makes this place worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html