4 ms·

Chinese also had the same "issue": it is more of a family of languages rather than a language. But the Chinese government has been pushing pretty hard for Manda

by msvan 8y ago

Chinese also had the same "issue": it is more of a family of languages rather than a language. But the Chinese government has been pushing pretty hard for Mandarin over the past 100 years, such that it has now become the Chinese language. It has cost them a lot of linguistic diversity, but they probably think it pays off in the long run.

village-idiot 8y ago
France is doing the same with French.
- davidw 8y ago
  'A language is a dialect with an army'
- rvense 8y ago
  French was a minority language in France until the 20th century. The other languages were basically beaten and shamed out of school children.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    Same situation with Italian. The introduction of the radio and the television played a big part in the shift to Italian and French becoming the normal languages for their respective countries over the multitude of regional languages.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      I really enjoy that Napolitan and Sicilian dialects are kind of still being spoken.
      - JBReefer 8y ago
        Sicilian is still spoken a bit in the New York Metro area - a lot of New Jersey Italians that speak fluent Italian have trouble communicating with people in Italy, because it's Sicilian!
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    Fortunately for french children that currently aren't forced to learn five dialects to communicate the same thing in five different french cities. The opposite way is leading to a few very bizarre and unfair situations.
- realusername 8y ago
  It's not exactly the same situation as Mandarin, the French dialects have generally not much to do with each other, it's not really a family of languages like Chinese.
jacobolus 8y ago
They [the Chinese Communist Party] think suppression of local languages “pays off” in the form of political consolidation/control. Which it certainly does, at the expense of Chinese citizens and their regional cultures. The Chinese government is by no means unique in this approach. Violent suppression of minority cultures has been a common occurrence in world history.
- geowwy 8y ago
  The RoC also promotes Mandarin, it's not unique to the PRC. Nearly every modern state promotes a national language.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    > It's not unique to the PRC Yes, that’s what I just said. > Nearly every modern state promotes a national language. While I agree that many states engage in implicit or explicit suppression of minority cultures (often worse in the past than today), and many (most?) states have a legally declared official language, your brief summary is a false equivalence. There are many places in the world where e.g. media in local languages is allowed, children are allowed to attend schools speaking their native languages, official government documents are translated into all of the most common minority languages, there is institutional support for cultural preservation, minority religious faiths are allowed to freely practice, etc.
    - wholien 8y ago
      I grew up in Shanghai from 1994 - 2013. To go through your points: 1) media in local languages is allowed and state-funded in Shanghai, 2) Kids did speak Shanghainese in school, though official instruction was in Mandarin, 3) Official documents can't be translated into Shanghainese since it's not written, 4) there is institutional support for cultural preservation - as I write below TV shows are in Shanghainese / Wu, announcements on buses and subways in Shanghainese, there are free Shanghainese classes you can attend, radio shows (all state-backed) that are Shanghainese only or have Shanghainese / Wu radio shows, 5) Shanghai's Religious Bureau was pretty good, I went to 3 Catholic churches in Shanghai growing up, they had Masses in Mandarin, Shanghainese (harder to do now since most priests in China come from smaller, extremely Catholic Villages, not as many from Shanghai), and English. The city gov't gave money to help restore / renovate the Shanghai Cathedral (if you're there you should go visit, it's in Xujiahui) - unclear about other ones but I've been to Protestant churches, been to one Mosque. There are 80 million Catholics in China now, so I think it counts as a minority religious faith. So to your points, the only one that Shanghai did not fulfill would probably be the "allowed to attend schools speaking their native languages" part. I'm not sure I think Shanghainese should be, maybe it should have a formal class? There are free classes you can take (usually by District), and everyone spoke Shanghainese at home, so I'm not sure it's necessary. If you go to Shanghai, buses and subways announce in three languages: Mandarin, English, and Shanghainese. I was just there beginning of October and yes, not all buses had this but it was prevalent enough. This means they are promoting the Shanghainese language (a subset of the larger Wu Chinese dialect). There are TV shows in Shanghai / Jiangsu / Zhejiang that are solely in the Wu dialect - and this is not recent. I remember watching shows with my aunts and uncles 15 years ago. XinMin Evening News always had some cartoons (think New Yorker cartoons but not as highbrow) with Shanghainese dialect subtitles (as in Chinese words that most mimic the Shanghainese dialect). If you go to Guangdong or Guangxi, many people still have trouble speaking Mandarin, especially outside of bigger cities like Guangzhou. In 2010 I was doing some volunteer work in a tiny village a few hours from Guangzhou and the kids we met literally did not understand Mandarin. The CCP struggled really hard to make schooling in Guangdong province taught in Mandarin (but succeeded by the 80s-ish, again, only in bigger cities). Now though, more and more schools are starting to do Cantonese classes with their own textbooks, alongside the standard Mandarin education.
pjmlp 8y ago
Just like Spanish was actually the language of Castilla region, and all other Iberian languages had to struggle for survival. During multiple times throughout the history, it wasn't healthy to speak other Iberian languages in public.
- narvval 8y ago
  This is the case in most European countries: - Florentine Italian displaced Sardinian, Napolitan, Romanesco, etc. - Ille-de-france French displaced Provencal, Occitan, Breton, etc. - English displaced Scots, Gaelic, Welsh, etc. Even countrires traditionally considered "nation-states" in a linguistic sense such as Portugal went down this route to some degree, with Mirandese and Barranqueno all but gone nowadays.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Agreed, however in the case of Wales and Portugal there are some ongoing efforts to keep Welsh and Mirandese alive, which of course depends on the willingness of the local population to actually care about it. Didn't knew that main Italian came from Florence, thanks for the hint.
    - anon0293948 8y ago
      Does Spain have any ongoing efforts to keep other Iberian languages alive?
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Nowadays yes, Galician, Basque, Catalan, Valencian and Maiorquim share their status with Spanish on their regions and have newspapers, books, radio and TV shows. I know my Iberian friends might have an argument about the last three ones, but I opted to list them as such anyway. Then there are tiny ones like Leonese, which the government provides support for learning and still have small communities speaking it.

by msvan 8y ago

village-idiot 8y ago

France is doing the same with French.

davidw 8y ago
'A language is a dialect with an army'
rvense 8y ago
French was a minority language in France until the 20th century. The other languages were basically beaten and shamed out of school children.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Same situation with Italian. The introduction of the radio and the television played a big part in the shift to Italian and French becoming the normal languages for their respective countries over the multitude of regional languages.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I really enjoy that Napolitan and Sicilian dialects are kind of still being spoken.
    - JBReefer 8y ago
      Sicilian is still spoken a bit in the New York Metro area - a lot of New Jersey Italians that speak fluent Italian have trouble communicating with people in Italy, because it's Sicilian!
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Fortunately for french children that currently aren't forced to learn five dialects to communicate the same thing in five different french cities. The opposite way is leading to a few very bizarre and unfair situations.
realusername 8y ago
It's not exactly the same situation as Mandarin, the French dialects have generally not much to do with each other, it's not really a family of languages like Chinese.

jacobolus 8y ago

They [the Chinese Communist Party] think suppression of local languages “pays off” in the form of political consolidation/control. Which it certainly does, at the expense of Chinese citizens and their regional cultures. The Chinese government is by no means unique in this approach. Violent suppression of minority cultures has been a common occurrence in world history.

geowwy 8y ago
The RoC also promotes Mandarin, it's not unique to the PRC. Nearly every modern state promotes a national language.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jacobolus 8y ago
  > It's not unique to the PRC Yes, that’s what I just said. > Nearly every modern state promotes a national language. While I agree that many states engage in implicit or explicit suppression of minority cultures (often worse in the past than today), and many (most?) states have a legally declared official language, your brief summary is a false equivalence. There are many places in the world where e.g. media in local languages is allowed, children are allowed to attend schools speaking their native languages, official government documents are translated into all of the most common minority languages, there is institutional support for cultural preservation, minority religious faiths are allowed to freely practice, etc.
  - wholien 8y ago
    I grew up in Shanghai from 1994 - 2013. To go through your points: 1) media in local languages is allowed and state-funded in Shanghai, 2) Kids did speak Shanghainese in school, though official instruction was in Mandarin, 3) Official documents can't be translated into Shanghainese since it's not written, 4) there is institutional support for cultural preservation - as I write below TV shows are in Shanghainese / Wu, announcements on buses and subways in Shanghainese, there are free Shanghainese classes you can attend, radio shows (all state-backed) that are Shanghainese only or have Shanghainese / Wu radio shows, 5) Shanghai's Religious Bureau was pretty good, I went to 3 Catholic churches in Shanghai growing up, they had Masses in Mandarin, Shanghainese (harder to do now since most priests in China come from smaller, extremely Catholic Villages, not as many from Shanghai), and English. The city gov't gave money to help restore / renovate the Shanghai Cathedral (if you're there you should go visit, it's in Xujiahui) - unclear about other ones but I've been to Protestant churches, been to one Mosque. There are 80 million Catholics in China now, so I think it counts as a minority religious faith. So to your points, the only one that Shanghai did not fulfill would probably be the "allowed to attend schools speaking their native languages" part. I'm not sure I think Shanghainese should be, maybe it should have a formal class? There are free classes you can take (usually by District), and everyone spoke Shanghainese at home, so I'm not sure it's necessary. If you go to Shanghai, buses and subways announce in three languages: Mandarin, English, and Shanghainese. I was just there beginning of October and yes, not all buses had this but it was prevalent enough. This means they are promoting the Shanghainese language (a subset of the larger Wu Chinese dialect). There are TV shows in Shanghai / Jiangsu / Zhejiang that are solely in the Wu dialect - and this is not recent. I remember watching shows with my aunts and uncles 15 years ago. XinMin Evening News always had some cartoons (think New Yorker cartoons but not as highbrow) with Shanghainese dialect subtitles (as in Chinese words that most mimic the Shanghainese dialect). If you go to Guangdong or Guangxi, many people still have trouble speaking Mandarin, especially outside of bigger cities like Guangzhou. In 2010 I was doing some volunteer work in a tiny village a few hours from Guangzhou and the kids we met literally did not understand Mandarin. The CCP struggled really hard to make schooling in Guangdong province taught in Mandarin (but succeeded by the 80s-ish, again, only in bigger cities). Now though, more and more schools are starting to do Cantonese classes with their own textbooks, alongside the standard Mandarin education.

pjmlp 8y ago

Just like Spanish was actually the language of Castilla region, and all other Iberian languages had to struggle for survival. During multiple times throughout the history, it wasn't healthy to speak other Iberian languages in public.

narvval 8y ago
This is the case in most European countries: - Florentine Italian displaced Sardinian, Napolitan, Romanesco, etc. - Ille-de-france French displaced Provencal, Occitan, Breton, etc. - English displaced Scots, Gaelic, Welsh, etc. Even countrires traditionally considered "nation-states" in a linguistic sense such as Portugal went down this route to some degree, with Mirandese and Barranqueno all but gone nowadays.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Agreed, however in the case of Wales and Portugal there are some ongoing efforts to keep Welsh and Mirandese alive, which of course depends on the willingness of the local population to actually care about it. Didn't knew that main Italian came from Florence, thanks for the hint.
  - anon0293948 8y ago
    Does Spain have any ongoing efforts to keep other Iberian languages alive?
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Nowadays yes, Galician, Basque, Catalan, Valencian and Maiorquim share their status with Spanish on their regions and have newspapers, books, radio and TV shows. I know my Iberian friends might have an argument about the last three ones, but I opted to list them as such anyway. Then there are tiny ones like Leonese, which the government provides support for learning and still have small communities speaking it.