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While I certainly tend more on your side of this discussion, I wonder to what degree your first point demonstrates a modern bias rather than an objective compar

While I certainly tend more on your side of this discussion, I wonder to what degree your first point demonstrates a modern bias rather than an objective comparison. Cars could only travel on roads, you couldn't go wherever you liked as on a horse. Narrow passages you could previously have ridden down were now inaccessible. You need to put fuel in your car, which was probably even harder then than finding an electric car charger at the start of their existence. Providing food and drink for a horse was comparatively trivial. Horses could easily be tied up outside of whatever store or destination you were visiting. What were the social costs of parking a great big machine outside of your local? To say nothing of parking as a town- or city-wide logistical problem.

Pharmakon 8y ago
Horses can in theory, go anywhere, but in practice it’s not advisable, at least at more than a trot. If you’re going at a canter, or god help you a gallop and the horse’s foot finds an unseen and unexpected hole, stone, etc... you’re going to be in serious trouble and so is the horse. Generally you only ride horses at high speeds on well worn and known trails, or roads. So yeah, a horse is better off-road than a Model T, but I’d rather walk unless I know the trail. Trotting for long periods is an athletic thing if you’re riding English, and torment on the groin otherwise. All in all, riding a horse for long periods is not easy unless you’re very used to it, and physically fit. Remember that at the time most horses weren’t being ridden, they were pulling carts or carriages, and they’re not exactly off-roaders either. Fuel was definitely an issue, but you could just carry tins of fuel and the car wouldn’t mind carrying them. Carrying food and water for a horse is no joke, and horses also need to rest. You also don’t have to take the saddle and bridle off a car, wash the car and brush it down. Horses really are a lot of work, especially if you’re working them hard. Remember that work also comes at the end of a long day in the saddle, which is hard work for you, especially if you’re beating a trail at a trot. Parking... I have no idea about the logistics of parking at that time, so I can’t say.
slavik81 8y ago
A horse produces ~20 pounds of manure and a liter of piss per day. It was not possible to keep the streets clean. Removing that waste was itself a huge logistical problem. > At the turn of the 20th century, the most malodorous environmental challenge facing the world’s big cities was not slums, sewage or soot; it was horse dung. In London in 1900, an estimated 300,000 horses pulled cabs and omnibuses, as well as carts, drays and haywains, leaving a swamp of manure in their wake. The citizens of New York, which was home to 100,000 horses, suffered the same blight; they had to navigate rivers of muck when it rained, and fly-infested dungheaps when the sun shone. At the first international urban-planning conference, held in New York in 1898, manure was at the top of the agenda. No remedies could be found, and the disappointed delegates returned home a week early. (https://www.economist.com/special-report/2016/11/26/the-future-of-oil https://www.economist.com/special-report/2016/11/26/the-futu...) See also The Horse & the Urban Environment: https://enviroliteracy.org/environment-society/transportation/the-horse-the-urban-environment/ https://enviroliteracy.org/environment-society/transportatio...
- wyattpeak 8y ago
  To be sure, I'm not saying cars weren't an improvement over horses (history proves they obviously were), I'm just saying that after a century of car culture we're probably somewhat inured to and/or have engineered around the negatives of car ownership, so they've become invisible to us. Now it just seems like a near-perfect drop-in replacement, which I guarantee it wasn't at the time. That said, I'm unconvinced that smell and mess are as compelling a selling-point as all that. Societally they're very important, but not obviously more than non-fuel-burning vehicles today. In practice, when it comes to making a purchase, there are often much more pressing concerns than an environmental issue over which you individually have little influence.

Pharmakon 8y ago

Horses can in theory, go anywhere, but in practice it’s not advisable, at least at more than a trot. If you’re going at a canter, or god help you a gallop and the horse’s foot finds an unseen and unexpected hole, stone, etc... you’re going to be in serious trouble and so is the horse. Generally you only ride horses at high speeds on well worn and known trails, or roads. So yeah, a horse is better off-road than a Model T, but I’d rather walk unless I know the trail. Trotting for long periods is an athletic thing if you’re riding English, and torment on the groin otherwise. All in all, riding a horse for long periods is not easy unless you’re very used to it, and physically fit. Remember that at the time most horses weren’t being ridden, they were pulling carts or carriages, and they’re not exactly off-roaders either. Fuel was definitely an issue, but you could just carry tins of fuel and the car wouldn’t mind carrying them. Carrying food and water for a horse is no joke, and horses also need to rest. You also don’t have to take the saddle and bridle off a car, wash the car and brush it down. Horses really are a lot of work, especially if you’re working them hard. Remember that work also comes at the end of a long day in the saddle, which is hard work for you, especially if you’re beating a trail at a trot. Parking... I have no idea about the logistics of parking at that time, so I can’t say.

slavik81 8y ago

A horse produces ~20 pounds of manure and a liter of piss per day. It was not possible to keep the streets clean. Removing that waste was itself a huge logistical problem. > At the turn of the 20th century, the most malodorous environmental challenge facing the world’s big cities was not slums, sewage or soot; it was horse dung. In London in 1900, an estimated 300,000 horses pulled cabs and omnibuses, as well as carts, drays and haywains, leaving a swamp of manure in their wake. The citizens of New York, which was home to 100,000 horses, suffered the same blight; they had to navigate rivers of muck when it rained, and fly-infested dungheaps when the sun shone. At the first international urban-planning conference, held in New York in 1898, manure was at the top of the agenda. No remedies could be found, and the disappointed delegates returned home a week early. (https://www.economist.com/special-report/2016/11/26/the-future-of-oil https://www.economist.com/special-report/2016/11/26/the-futu...) See also The Horse & the Urban Environment: https://enviroliteracy.org/environment-society/transportation/the-horse-the-urban-environment/ https://enviroliteracy.org/environment-society/transportatio...

wyattpeak 8y ago
To be sure, I'm not saying cars weren't an improvement over horses (history proves they obviously were), I'm just saying that after a century of car culture we're probably somewhat inured to and/or have engineered around the negatives of car ownership, so they've become invisible to us. Now it just seems like a near-perfect drop-in replacement, which I guarantee it wasn't at the time. That said, I'm unconvinced that smell and mess are as compelling a selling-point as all that. Societally they're very important, but not obviously more than non-fuel-burning vehicles today. In practice, when it comes to making a purchase, there are often much more pressing concerns than an environmental issue over which you individually have little influence.