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I disagree - I've been driving EVs exclusively (Ford Focus Electric followed by Tesla MS) since 2013 in So Cal and can attest to how poor user experience is wit

by jread 8y ago

I disagree - I've been driving EVs exclusively (Ford Focus Electric followed by Tesla MS) since 2013 in So Cal and can attest to how poor user experience is with 3rd party charge networks. First of all, there are 4+ distinct networks each requiring separate account/payment setup and RFIDs. They are often broken, fully used, overpriced or cumbersome to start. Most are L2 with 20-30A - charging at <20 MPH. Fast chargers are sparse - and this is in California where the most EVs are sold in the US. When I leave the state, charge networks become almost nonexistent in many areas. To the contrary, user experience at Tesla superchargers is great. There are enough of them, evenly distributed, that I never have range anxiety, they work, they are usually not over crowded (although getting busier), they are free or at cost, they are high powered, usually located near nice amenities, and they are simple - pull in, plug in and wait 15-45 minutes. I don't see anything on the horizon from other manufacturers that will even remotely approximate what Tesla offers today with supercharging. Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there.

user9995 8y ago
>Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there. So people believe that Tesla is going to upend the entire auto industry, but can't believe that some company will figure out how to build nice charging stations? So many contradictions in the arguments here. Yes, the Supercharger network was, basically, necessary for Tesla to reach a critical acceptance level. But operating and maintaining those stations is not free. The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. It's a no-brainer. If/when EV demand reaches those levels, it will happen.
- ethbro 8y ago
  > The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. Do they? I was under the impression most fueling stations had standard single-phase 200A hookups to the grid. So, at minimum, that would mean an electrical upgrade, no?
- Robotbeat 8y ago
  The problem is they aren’t doing it. The ones who are are charging about the same price (or often higher!) for electricity that you would spend for gas (per mile) while even the Supercharger users who have to pay end up spending almost half the price as they would for gas. If you don’t have an electric car (I have two, a Volt with no quickcharge and a Leaf with a quick charge), it’s hard to understand just how strong Tesla’s position in the market is here. It’ll probably be a decade before others catch up. Less if they partner with Tesla. But here’s the thing: the market for electric cars is enormous, as big as the market for regular ICE cars. It’s not a niche. That’s why the “Tesla killer” argument is dumb: if your target is Tesla, you’ll lose because you’ll always be behind, fighting over a niche that Tesla created. Because Tesla wasn’t targeting other EVs, or even hybrids, they are targeting the entire market. If your target is ICE vehicles, then you may win because there will be plenty of market to go around. The only chance to beat Tesla is to beat ICE cars.
- jread 8y ago
  >So people believe that Tesla is going to upend the entire auto industry, but can't believe that some company will figure out how to build nice charging stations? I think you're underestimating Tesla's first-mover advantage. My father works for a city in LA county and when Tesla decided to build a supercharger there, they initially asked the city to not only provide free real estate and grid connection, but to pay them to do it. Now, the city didn't pay, but it did incentivize in the form of free spaces in a prime shopping center because both city and property owner knew superchargers will bring a steady flow of well-to-do captive audience customers. I'm guessing this scenario is repeating itself all over the country wherein Tesla is building out superchargers for very low upfront and recurring cost. No other charge network or automobile manufacturer has this type of leverage, nor will they for likely many years. If Electrify America were to approach that same city with the same request they'd likely have to pay/lease real estate, or install in sub-optimal locations (like Walmart parking lots), because they will not bring even remotely close to the same amount of traffic and economic activity as superchargers.
Wehrdo 8y ago
> charging at < 20 MPH. I've never heard charging speeds referenced in this way, but it's a really clever way to take into account the charging rate and vehicle efficiency, while being very intuitive! Is this a common "unit" in the EV space?
- akmiller 8y ago
  On Tesla's at least they show you this number alongside the kW's. Definitely easier to communicate with most people and very impressive to see the car getting 400+ miles per hour and the mileage just rolling up while plugged in (so much so that the first time I used one I had to take a video of the screen to show my family!). Obviously that slows down as the battery gets closer to capacity, but damn impressive.
- js2 8y ago
  I only have a Volt and it's used commonly on the Volt forums and what not, so I'd say yes.

by jread 8y ago

user9995 8y ago

>Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there. So people believe that Tesla is going to upend the entire auto industry, but can't believe that some company will figure out how to build nice charging stations? So many contradictions in the arguments here. Yes, the Supercharger network was, basically, necessary for Tesla to reach a critical acceptance level. But operating and maintaining those stations is not free. The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. It's a no-brainer. If/when EV demand reaches those levels, it will happen.

ethbro 8y ago
> The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. Do they? I was under the impression most fueling stations had standard single-phase 200A hookups to the grid. So, at minimum, that would mean an electrical upgrade, no?
Robotbeat 8y ago
The problem is they aren’t doing it. The ones who are are charging about the same price (or often higher!) for electricity that you would spend for gas (per mile) while even the Supercharger users who have to pay end up spending almost half the price as they would for gas. If you don’t have an electric car (I have two, a Volt with no quickcharge and a Leaf with a quick charge), it’s hard to understand just how strong Tesla’s position in the market is here. It’ll probably be a decade before others catch up. Less if they partner with Tesla. But here’s the thing: the market for electric cars is enormous, as big as the market for regular ICE cars. It’s not a niche. That’s why the “Tesla killer” argument is dumb: if your target is Tesla, you’ll lose because you’ll always be behind, fighting over a niche that Tesla created. Because Tesla wasn’t targeting other EVs, or even hybrids, they are targeting the entire market. If your target is ICE vehicles, then you may win because there will be plenty of market to go around. The only chance to beat Tesla is to beat ICE cars.
jread 8y ago
>So people believe that Tesla is going to upend the entire auto industry, but can't believe that some company will figure out how to build nice charging stations? I think you're underestimating Tesla's first-mover advantage. My father works for a city in LA county and when Tesla decided to build a supercharger there, they initially asked the city to not only provide free real estate and grid connection, but to pay them to do it. Now, the city didn't pay, but it did incentivize in the form of free spaces in a prime shopping center because both city and property owner knew superchargers will bring a steady flow of well-to-do captive audience customers. I'm guessing this scenario is repeating itself all over the country wherein Tesla is building out superchargers for very low upfront and recurring cost. No other charge network or automobile manufacturer has this type of leverage, nor will they for likely many years. If Electrify America were to approach that same city with the same request they'd likely have to pay/lease real estate, or install in sub-optimal locations (like Walmart parking lots), because they will not bring even remotely close to the same amount of traffic and economic activity as superchargers.

Wehrdo 8y ago

> charging at < 20 MPH. I've never heard charging speeds referenced in this way, but it's a really clever way to take into account the charging rate and vehicle efficiency, while being very intuitive! Is this a common "unit" in the EV space?

akmiller 8y ago
On Tesla's at least they show you this number alongside the kW's. Definitely easier to communicate with most people and very impressive to see the car getting 400+ miles per hour and the mileage just rolling up while plugged in (so much so that the first time I used one I had to take a video of the screen to show my family!). Obviously that slows down as the battery gets closer to capacity, but damn impressive.
js2 8y ago
I only have a Volt and it's used commonly on the Volt forums and what not, so I'd say yes.