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My comment wasn't intended to be snarky, but when someone questions my credentials, albeit inadvertantly and through ignorance, I find it a little hard to be en

My comment wasn't intended to be snarky, but when someone questions my credentials, albeit inadvertantly and through ignorance, I find it a little hard to be entirely objective. I do read and write persistent data stores, I've just never had to use SQL or a relational database. I've just gone and looked it up. I do know the concepts of inner, outer, left and right joins, and I use similar constructions every day. But this is counter-productive. I've made my point that there are areas of programming that don't use SQL or relational-databases or web technologies. Making sweeping statements about the competence of programmers based on their knowledge of technologies they don't use is blinkered. Yes, programmers who work in web development most likely should know about databases and HTML. If they don't, then they are most likely either inexperienced or limited in their capabilities. It may yet be that the code they write is clear, clean, well-designed and bug-free, but databases and HTML are strongly correlated with productivity in this field.

donaq 16y ago
My comment wasn't intended to be snarky, but when someone questions my credentials, albeit inadvertantly and through ignorance, I find it a little hard to be entirely objective. Huh. Well, you've been programming for longer than I've been alive, so you're almost certainly a better programmer than I am.
- RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
  I suspect that largely we've been talking (arguing?) past each other. My point was/is that there are areas of programming that really, really don't need SQL or relational databases, and don't touch web interfaces. I've just been talking with a friend who does financial simulations as well, and he's heard of joins, but never used them. He's also never written HTML, but has got a clue about it. There are also many programmers out there who claim 30 years of experiences, but who actually have 1 year of experience 30 times over. At its heart I think we'd all agree that narrow definitions and narrow judgements don't do anyone much good. There are more programmers than just web programmers, or embedded programmers, or kernel programmers, or simulation programmers, etc. We should all do each other the courtesy of recognising each others' skills and knowledge.
  - donaq 16y ago
    We have definitely been talking past each other. Mostly because we understand the term "database" differently (see my other reply to you). I am actually mostly in agreement with you, since I don't do that much web development these days either. And narrow judgements may not do anyone good, but I think precise definitions would have helped us in this case. :)
    - hugh3 16y ago
      I've never done "database" stuff either, but I've "read from persistent data sources" (Fortran formatted read ftw). But if I tried to claim this counted as "database experience" on a job application I don't think many people would agree.

donaq 16y ago

RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
I suspect that largely we've been talking (arguing?) past each other. My point was/is that there are areas of programming that really, really don't need SQL or relational databases, and don't touch web interfaces. I've just been talking with a friend who does financial simulations as well, and he's heard of joins, but never used them. He's also never written HTML, but has got a clue about it. There are also many programmers out there who claim 30 years of experiences, but who actually have 1 year of experience 30 times over. At its heart I think we'd all agree that narrow definitions and narrow judgements don't do anyone much good. There are more programmers than just web programmers, or embedded programmers, or kernel programmers, or simulation programmers, etc. We should all do each other the courtesy of recognising each others' skills and knowledge.
- donaq 16y ago
  We have definitely been talking past each other. Mostly because we understand the term "database" differently (see my other reply to you). I am actually mostly in agreement with you, since I don't do that much web development these days either. And narrow judgements may not do anyone good, but I think precise definitions would have helped us in this case. :)
  - hugh3 16y ago
    I've never done "database" stuff either, but I've "read from persistent data sources" (Fortran formatted read ftw). But if I tried to claim this counted as "database experience" on a job application I don't think many people would agree.