3 ms·

No I'm not saying that, not sure why you made that leap.

by yepguy 8y ago

CocaKoala 8y ago
Well, you said that people don't get to choose the pronouns that other people refer to them by, and the reason that people can do this with names but not pronouns is because pronouns are a syntactic construct. Thus, when people misgendered me as a child because they mistook me for a girl, it seems to follow that you're asserting that I shouldn't have corrected them because a pronoun is a syntactic construct and I don't get to choose what pronoun they use to refer to me by, regardless of how I personally identify. I can correct them if they mispronounce my name, but not if they mistake me for a girl. If that's not what you're saying, then I guess I don't understand your position.
- yepguy 8y ago
  I was just spitballing, I'm not committing to any hard and fast rule here. Someone referred to you with the wrong gender because they mistook you for a girl, and probably appreciated the correction. This is way different than the transgender case in that no deep-seated & conflicting beliefs came into play. Language is deep-seated, syntax more than names. Beliefs about gender are also obviously deep-seated. I would say that I'm undecided on transgender issues, so mostly my position is that you shouldn't assume that skepticism is equivalent to bigotry.
  - CocaKoala 8y ago
    > This is way different than the transgender case in that no deep-seated & conflicting beliefs came into play. What deep-seated and conflicting beliefs come into play here? This doesn't need to be about transgender issues, that's just where it comes up a lot (for obvious reasons). If I get to say that I want people to use masculine pronouns and correct people when they refer to me as "her" or "she", that seems reasonable to me. And it sounds like it seems reasonable to you too. That seems like a solid case for saying "people should get to choose their pronouns". I choose masculine ones. Somebody else might make a different choice, but it doesn't become "special treatment" just because they're making a different choice.
    - yepguy 8y ago
      Transgender or not, the pertinent issue is not whether people have a right to choose their pronouns (they don't), but what gender the speaker believes the referent to be. If you're using third person pronouns, you're generally not speaking to the person in question anyway.
      - CocaKoala 8y ago
        So if somebody _mistakes_ me for a girl, I can correct them, but if they deliberately decide to refer to me as "she", I have to accept it?
        yepguy 8y ago
        I really don't think my opinion is so complicated. Your reaction should depend a great deal on whether they were being straightforward (doubtful in your case) or malicious. In neither case will you get very far by trying to control their speech or acting indignant about it, but that doesn't mean the only alternative is accepting it.
        CocaKoala 8y ago
        Wait, have I mischaracterized your argument in any way? Because I'm honestly not trying to do that, I'm just trying to follow your position to its logical conclusion. If somebody says about me, "She's been really busy this week" and I overhear them and say "Excuse me, I prefer masculine pronouns", somebody following your line of argument can respond by saying "Sorry, but a pronoun is a syntactic construction, you don't have the right to choose which one refers to you." What about that doesn't follow from your position here?
        yepguy 8y ago
        I don't think you've mischaracterized me, but you've given undue attention to statements that I consider tangental and would be okay with discarding. Let me restate my position, which I think I can do more clearly now: 1. The general rule that English speakers use to choose a gendered pronoun depends on what the speaker believes a person's gender is, not what the referent prefers or believes. You don't get to choose their words for them. 2. You should clearly be offended if someone uses the opposite gender that they believe you to be. (If someone thinks you're male but refers to you as female). 3. It's not at all clear whether or not you should be offended when someone uses the opposite gender that you believe yourself to be, even if they know what you prefer. (If you believe you're male, but they believe you're female). The fact that I'm neutral or uncertain in this case might be why you couldn't pin down my argument.

No I'm not saying that, not sure why you made that leap.

by yepguy 8y ago

No I'm not saying that, not sure why you made that leap.

Well, you said that people don't get to choose the pronouns that other people refer to them by, and the reason that people can do this with names but not pronouns is because pronouns are a syntactic construct. Thus, when people misgendered me as a child because they mistook me for a girl, it seems to follow that you're asserting that I shouldn't have corrected them because a pronoun is a syntactic construct and I don't get to choose what pronoun they use to refer to me by, regardless of how I personally identify. I can correct them if they mispronounce my name, but not if they mistake me for a girl. If that's not what you're saying, then I guess I don't understand your position.

yepguy 8y ago
I was just spitballing, I'm not committing to any hard and fast rule here. Someone referred to you with the wrong gender because they mistook you for a girl, and probably appreciated the correction. This is way different than the transgender case in that no deep-seated & conflicting beliefs came into play. Language is deep-seated, syntax more than names. Beliefs about gender are also obviously deep-seated. I would say that I'm undecided on transgender issues, so mostly my position is that you shouldn't assume that skepticism is equivalent to bigotry.
- CocaKoala 8y ago
  > This is way different than the transgender case in that no deep-seated & conflicting beliefs came into play. What deep-seated and conflicting beliefs come into play here? This doesn't need to be about transgender issues, that's just where it comes up a lot (for obvious reasons). If I get to say that I want people to use masculine pronouns and correct people when they refer to me as "her" or "she", that seems reasonable to me. And it sounds like it seems reasonable to you too. That seems like a solid case for saying "people should get to choose their pronouns". I choose masculine ones. Somebody else might make a different choice, but it doesn't become "special treatment" just because they're making a different choice.
  - yepguy 8y ago
    Transgender or not, the pertinent issue is not whether people have a right to choose their pronouns (they don't), but what gender the speaker believes the referent to be. If you're using third person pronouns, you're generally not speaking to the person in question anyway.
    - CocaKoala 8y ago
      So if somebody _mistakes_ me for a girl, I can correct them, but if they deliberately decide to refer to me as "she", I have to accept it?
      - yepguy 8y ago
        I really don't think my opinion is so complicated. Your reaction should depend a great deal on whether they were being straightforward (doubtful in your case) or malicious. In neither case will you get very far by trying to control their speech or acting indignant about it, but that doesn't mean the only alternative is accepting it.
        CocaKoala 8y ago
        Wait, have I mischaracterized your argument in any way? Because I'm honestly not trying to do that, I'm just trying to follow your position to its logical conclusion. If somebody says about me, "She's been really busy this week" and I overhear them and say "Excuse me, I prefer masculine pronouns", somebody following your line of argument can respond by saying "Sorry, but a pronoun is a syntactic construction, you don't have the right to choose which one refers to you." What about that doesn't follow from your position here?
        yepguy 8y ago
        I don't think you've mischaracterized me, but you've given undue attention to statements that I consider tangental and would be okay with discarding. Let me restate my position, which I think I can do more clearly now: 1. The general rule that English speakers use to choose a gendered pronoun depends on what the speaker believes a person's gender is, not what the referent prefers or believes. You don't get to choose their words for them. 2. You should clearly be offended if someone uses the opposite gender that they believe you to be. (If someone thinks you're male but refers to you as female). 3. It's not at all clear whether or not you should be offended when someone uses the opposite gender that you believe yourself to be, even if they know what you prefer. (If you believe you're male, but they believe you're female). The fact that I'm neutral or uncertain in this case might be why you couldn't pin down my argument.