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Amazing results - I am especially taking great pleasure in watching the shorts get decimated. The Model 3 is a game-changer for the masses. I walked past 6 of

Amazing results - I am especially taking great pleasure in watching the shorts get decimated. The Model 3 is a game-changer for the masses. I walked past 6 of them just on my way to get coffee this morning. We're truly witnessing the EV revolution.

threeseed 8y ago
I will never understand why Tesla people are so obsessed with short sellers. They exist for every company. And the majority of them would have hedged their bets in some form so it's not like they are likely to lose substantial amounts of money. Tesla almost seems to be similar to Trump in that they need a fictitious enemy to distract the attention away from themselves.
- mediaman 8y ago
  Everyone's got shorts, but Tesla's short position as percent of float is very high, at almost 29%. GM, for example, is under 2%, and Ford around 3%. That makes it a material point of discussion. Second, yes, they are probably hedged. But usually they hedge against correlated securities such as industry competitors so they can hedge away risk they don't want to take (i.e., they have a position against Tesla, but no position about car sales in general, so they hedge against the rest of the industry to protect themselves against economic growth raising all car sales). So if Tesla reports good numbers relative to the industry, it will absolutely impact shorts and they are likely to lose substantial amounts of money. What else would they be hedging with? Maybe their bonds, if you had some sort of complicated capital structure arbitrage play, but I haven't seen much of a case being made about the bonds being undervalued relative to equity. Having said that, I think shorts play an important role in the economy to keep companies honest.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    > Tesla's short position as percent of float is very high, at almost 29%. GM, for example, is under 2%, and Ford around 3%. Auto comparisons are worthwhile, but equally valid are comparisons to companies of a similar age, not just established stalwarts (for better or worse).
- synaesthesisx 8y ago
  Many of them are funded by big oil - and have been spreading FUD in an attempt to manipulate the price. Tesla is the one of the most shorted companies on the market today. https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-troll-short-doxxed-oil-industry-musk-calls-boss/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-troll-short-doxxed-oil-...
- eloff 8y ago
  Because it's one of the most heavily shorted stocks on the index. Basically Tesla has always been the underdog and tons of people are itching to see them fail. So watching them succeed against the odds and the naysayers getting burned is quite satisfying - just speaking from a human story perspective.
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I think Tesla is fine. But I think Musk is a bit of a wanker and I have an allergic reaction to the hero-worship that's grown around him.
    - eloff 8y ago
      Musk has his faults for sure, and he really needs some people reviewing his twitter posts before they go live. But I find it amusing that people are so quick to point out his faults and criticize the guy when he's accomplished more in his life to date than any single one of his critics, with at most a couple exceptions, like Bezos. Basically if he's a wanker, what's that make you? I don't think it's fallacious reasoning here at all to say that. Basically your standards for a non-wanker must be so high as to include almost nobody. I'm not just talking about his financial success, I'm talking about changing the world for the better with his companies, for raising 5 children, etc. The guy has his faults, but so do we all. If he's a wanker, than really who isn't?
      - jacques_chester 8y ago
        > If he's a wanker, than really who isn't? In my estimation, most people are not wankers. I think we have different estimations. And accomplishment is not a defense against wankerdom.
      - nemo846 8y ago
        I utterly hate the cult of personality around him. It makes any kind of discussion impossible. Look at the person you relied to, his post is already grey. The guy is kind of a wanker: https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5380/millionaire-starter-wife/ https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5380/millionaire-start... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/29/elon-musk-doubles-down-on-pedo-claims-against-uk-cave-diver https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/29/elon-musk... Everyone just give him a free pass which is bullshit. Personally I think the guy is a narcissist given how much he loves attention. Like most narcissists he will shit on you if you get in his way, right and wrong be damned - something to keep in mind.
- rconti 8y ago
  There's substantial evidence that (some of them) are actively working to crush the company, rather than to merely profit if the company fails to succeed. I believe in the principle of short selling, but I am not a fan of Tesla shorts specifically. I don't own any stock, but I have vested interest in seeing them succeed as I own a car that I would prefer not to see turned into a paperweight; of course, I have always recognized that this is a gamble I am choosing to make.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- llsf 8y ago
  My understanding is that Tesla short sellers are more visible because of the amount of money betting against Tesla. With an estimated ~$11B of short position (https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/04/15/tesla-has-the-largest-short-position-of-any-stock-followed-by-the-faangs/#24dffa6a1573 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/04/15/tesla-has...), that is not fictitious. With so much money at stake, some short sellers might be tempted to start false rumors or even damage the company, in order to recoup some of their money.
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    Nothing about being long makes people scrupulously truthful. Every hedge fund will talk their book. Short, long or upside down flying purple sunblock, they will talk their book.
compcoffee 8y ago
Why? Because Elon dislikes them? The stock is still way off all time highs, you appear to have a short memory.
- llsf 8y ago
  The share price is below some highs, but still... talking about memory, the stock was ~$35 5 years ago, and now trading at ~$300. Yes, some stocks did better during that time, but it is not that bad.

threeseed 8y ago

I will never understand why Tesla people are so obsessed with short sellers. They exist for every company. And the majority of them would have hedged their bets in some form so it's not like they are likely to lose substantial amounts of money. Tesla almost seems to be similar to Trump in that they need a fictitious enemy to distract the attention away from themselves.

mediaman 8y ago
Everyone's got shorts, but Tesla's short position as percent of float is very high, at almost 29%. GM, for example, is under 2%, and Ford around 3%. That makes it a material point of discussion. Second, yes, they are probably hedged. But usually they hedge against correlated securities such as industry competitors so they can hedge away risk they don't want to take (i.e., they have a position against Tesla, but no position about car sales in general, so they hedge against the rest of the industry to protect themselves against economic growth raising all car sales). So if Tesla reports good numbers relative to the industry, it will absolutely impact shorts and they are likely to lose substantial amounts of money. What else would they be hedging with? Maybe their bonds, if you had some sort of complicated capital structure arbitrage play, but I haven't seen much of a case being made about the bonds being undervalued relative to equity. Having said that, I think shorts play an important role in the economy to keep companies honest.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > Tesla's short position as percent of float is very high, at almost 29%. GM, for example, is under 2%, and Ford around 3%. Auto comparisons are worthwhile, but equally valid are comparisons to companies of a similar age, not just established stalwarts (for better or worse).
synaesthesisx 8y ago
Many of them are funded by big oil - and have been spreading FUD in an attempt to manipulate the price. Tesla is the one of the most shorted companies on the market today. https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-troll-short-doxxed-oil-industry-musk-calls-boss/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-troll-short-doxxed-oil-...
eloff 8y ago
Because it's one of the most heavily shorted stocks on the index. Basically Tesla has always been the underdog and tons of people are itching to see them fail. So watching them succeed against the odds and the naysayers getting burned is quite satisfying - just speaking from a human story perspective.
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  I can't speak for anyone else, but I think Tesla is fine. But I think Musk is a bit of a wanker and I have an allergic reaction to the hero-worship that's grown around him.
  - eloff 8y ago
    Musk has his faults for sure, and he really needs some people reviewing his twitter posts before they go live. But I find it amusing that people are so quick to point out his faults and criticize the guy when he's accomplished more in his life to date than any single one of his critics, with at most a couple exceptions, like Bezos. Basically if he's a wanker, what's that make you? I don't think it's fallacious reasoning here at all to say that. Basically your standards for a non-wanker must be so high as to include almost nobody. I'm not just talking about his financial success, I'm talking about changing the world for the better with his companies, for raising 5 children, etc. The guy has his faults, but so do we all. If he's a wanker, than really who isn't?
    - jacques_chester 8y ago
      > If he's a wanker, than really who isn't? In my estimation, most people are not wankers. I think we have different estimations. And accomplishment is not a defense against wankerdom.
    - nemo846 8y ago
      I utterly hate the cult of personality around him. It makes any kind of discussion impossible. Look at the person you relied to, his post is already grey. The guy is kind of a wanker: https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5380/millionaire-starter-wife/ https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5380/millionaire-start... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/29/elon-musk-doubles-down-on-pedo-claims-against-uk-cave-diver https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/29/elon-musk... Everyone just give him a free pass which is bullshit. Personally I think the guy is a narcissist given how much he loves attention. Like most narcissists he will shit on you if you get in his way, right and wrong be damned - something to keep in mind.
rconti 8y ago
There's substantial evidence that (some of them) are actively working to crush the company, rather than to merely profit if the company fails to succeed. I believe in the principle of short selling, but I am not a fan of Tesla shorts specifically. I don't own any stock, but I have vested interest in seeing them succeed as I own a car that I would prefer not to see turned into a paperweight; of course, I have always recognized that this is a gamble I am choosing to make.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
llsf 8y ago
My understanding is that Tesla short sellers are more visible because of the amount of money betting against Tesla. With an estimated ~$11B of short position (https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/04/15/tesla-has-the-largest-short-position-of-any-stock-followed-by-the-faangs/#24dffa6a1573 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/04/15/tesla-has...), that is not fictitious. With so much money at stake, some short sellers might be tempted to start false rumors or even damage the company, in order to recoup some of their money.
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  Nothing about being long makes people scrupulously truthful. Every hedge fund will talk their book. Short, long or upside down flying purple sunblock, they will talk their book.

compcoffee 8y ago

Why? Because Elon dislikes them? The stock is still way off all time highs, you appear to have a short memory.

llsf 8y ago
The share price is below some highs, but still... talking about memory, the stock was ~$35 5 years ago, and now trading at ~$300. Yes, some stocks did better during that time, but it is not that bad.