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Wouldn't it be awful if you could only buy Ford gasoline from Ford gas stations? The lock in model is attractive until you think about broader implication, I ag

Wouldn't it be awful if you could only buy Ford gasoline from Ford gas stations? The lock in model is attractive until you think about broader implication, I agree with Evans too that it will be a commodity race to the bottom for recharging, with cost introduced for the power

stephengillie 8y ago
General Motors owns a patent on leaded gasoline. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-engines https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-dis...
- frostburg 8y ago
  Invented by the same person that invented Freon, too. Talented chemical engineer but possibly the most harmful human to have ever lived by some metrics.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    The same guy who was killed by his own apparatus to get him out of bed after he caught polio. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_...
    - burger_moon 8y ago
      His whole wiki reads like a horror story. So many people died of lead poisoning at DuPont where they were developing it. > Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems.
Mongus 8y ago
Tesla's aren't locked into using Tesla chargers. They do have a proprietary connector on the vehicles but they come with several adapters including J1772. Superchargers are a phenomenal perk, not a lock in.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Are Superchargers free to use by people who have not bought Teslas?
  - rconti 8y ago
    No, but the point is that this is not a reason Tesla won't succeed, it's just a reason that superchargers suck for non-Tesla EV owners. From a business standpoint, this is the right place to be; lock others out, but don't lock your customers in.
    - Mongus 8y ago
      Exactly. I don't think Tesla would have anywhere near the sales they've had without Superchargers. The other EV manufacturers need to figure out how to offer something similar if they want any chance of competing.
  - Mongus 8y ago
    Superchargers only work with Teslas due to some signaling and they aren't free for all Teslas. You can get an adapter that goes from a Tesla connector to J1772 but it won't work at a Supercharger, just home or destination chargers.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jcheng 8y ago
    No, but https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supe... > One question posed during Wednesday's Tesla quarterly earnings call involved allowing other manufacturers to access Tesla's supercharger network and Elon Musk's response was surprising. > "This is not a walled garden." > By that Musk means that he's open to allowing other EV manufacturers to configure their vehicles to be able to use the Superchargers. He stipulates that these manufacturers would have to pay their fair share of the costs and would have to either adopt Tesla's plug standard or include an adapter in their vehicles.
Patrick_Devine 8y ago
I agree that that model would be awful, but I think maybe that that is too simple of an analogy. We do already have fuel stations which are exclusive right now, in the form of card access only truck stops which only dispense diesel fuel. There are also similar fuel distribution mechanisms in the marine and aviation industries which dispense different types of fuels (Bunker fuel, 100LL, Jet-A, etc.) which can't be used in automotive applications. The biggest difference here is that electricity, thankfully, is the same in any form, and the key differentiator is the speed at which you can deliver it. I definitely hope that we can agree on better, faster, common, charge delivery formats, but I wouldn't want to put a hamper on innovation, particularly when the electrical automotive industry is so nascent.
ensignavenger 8y ago
Unless they can make charging as quick as filling a tank with gas, there is a lot of opportunity in location and surrounding services, provided while the batteries are being charged.
- Theodores 8y ago
  Are there any U.S. hotel chains that are in on this? Hotels have facilities that aren't used after breakfast until the evening, however they still have to have a lot of staff on-site during these hours. You could have nice food and coffee instead of motorway service station junk, with booking facilities so you can have that coffee ready as you walk through the door and your parking spot for the charging reserved. This could work really well in the more scenic parts of the world where there is a lot of the infrastructure built out already, just the right plugs with the right volts and amps needed.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    A large number of high-end hotels have Tesla "destination chargers", which you can generally use if you eat in their restaurant. I've been out wine tasting and have run into Tesla destination chargers.
    - AshleyGrant 8y ago
      Not just "high-end" hotels. On my recent trip round-trip Florida-Texas drive in my Model 3, I stayed at a Hilton Garden Inn and two Hampton Inns that had Tesla Destination Chargers. It was nice to pull in with 10-20% charge and pull out in the AM fully charged and not paid anything extra for it.
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  It's almost there. A Supercharger can charge in about 20 minutes and the navigation in the car shows you food stops and amenities near the Supercharger and then sends you a push notification when the car is nearly completely charged. Considering that this experience is more rare than me being able to charge the car every night at home instead of having to stop at a gas station ever, I think the trade off is in Tesla's favor.
dpkonofa 8y ago
It's funny you say that because that's the exact reason Superchargers exist. The other chargers in question charge incredibly slowly compared to a Supercharger. Teslas main advantage was that they had to foresight to realize that people wouldn't swap to electric vehicles unless they could have a similar experience to pulling up, filling up your tank, and driving off. A Supercharger is the closest thing - 0 to full in 20 to 25 minutes. The Blink/Chargepoint/WhateverElse networks are a full charge in 8 to 12 hours.
- ryacko 8y ago
  Realistically, people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. But people tend to be dominated by edge cases instead of giving up a small amount of mobility.
  - dpkonofa 8y ago
    >people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. What is this based on? I know several people with electric cars and none of us take planes and rent cars on trips unless they're to another country. I drive to California and Austin all the time and the Tesla is the first car that I don't have to stay the night charging for.
    - user9995 8y ago
      >What is this based on? This is the "everything is Silicon Valley" view of the world. Another hilarious one is: "why doesn't everyone just bike to work?"
- shaklee3 8y ago
  20 to 25 minutes is still an eternity compared to gasoline. Yes, it's faster than the other chargers, but that's about the same amount of time an oil change takes. That's something people have to plan around since it's not 3-4 minutes.
nickik 8y ago
Technology always starts out exclusive and then is then broadens out. Tesla network gives them a huge advantage because now they are in control over how this process is gone happen.
Latteland 8y ago
Tesla can do superchargers and almost all other 3rd party chargers. They aren't lock in, they are like a super-capable system. Only other cars can't use tesla chargers.

stephengillie 8y ago

General Motors owns a patent on leaded gasoline. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-engines https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-dis...

frostburg 8y ago
Invented by the same person that invented Freon, too. Talented chemical engineer but possibly the most harmful human to have ever lived by some metrics.
- JetSpiegel 8y ago
  The same guy who was killed by his own apparatus to get him out of bed after he caught polio. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_...
  - burger_moon 8y ago
    His whole wiki reads like a horror story. So many people died of lead poisoning at DuPont where they were developing it. > Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems.

Mongus 8y ago

Tesla's aren't locked into using Tesla chargers. They do have a proprietary connector on the vehicles but they come with several adapters including J1772. Superchargers are a phenomenal perk, not a lock in.

saagarjha 8y ago
Are Superchargers free to use by people who have not bought Teslas?
- rconti 8y ago
  No, but the point is that this is not a reason Tesla won't succeed, it's just a reason that superchargers suck for non-Tesla EV owners. From a business standpoint, this is the right place to be; lock others out, but don't lock your customers in.
  - Mongus 8y ago
    Exactly. I don't think Tesla would have anywhere near the sales they've had without Superchargers. The other EV manufacturers need to figure out how to offer something similar if they want any chance of competing.
- Mongus 8y ago
  Superchargers only work with Teslas due to some signaling and they aren't free for all Teslas. You can get an adapter that goes from a Tesla connector to J1772 but it won't work at a Supercharger, just home or destination chargers.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jcheng 8y ago
  No, but https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supe... > One question posed during Wednesday's Tesla quarterly earnings call involved allowing other manufacturers to access Tesla's supercharger network and Elon Musk's response was surprising. > "This is not a walled garden." > By that Musk means that he's open to allowing other EV manufacturers to configure their vehicles to be able to use the Superchargers. He stipulates that these manufacturers would have to pay their fair share of the costs and would have to either adopt Tesla's plug standard or include an adapter in their vehicles.

Patrick_Devine 8y ago

I agree that that model would be awful, but I think maybe that that is too simple of an analogy. We do already have fuel stations which are exclusive right now, in the form of card access only truck stops which only dispense diesel fuel. There are also similar fuel distribution mechanisms in the marine and aviation industries which dispense different types of fuels (Bunker fuel, 100LL, Jet-A, etc.) which can't be used in automotive applications. The biggest difference here is that electricity, thankfully, is the same in any form, and the key differentiator is the speed at which you can deliver it. I definitely hope that we can agree on better, faster, common, charge delivery formats, but I wouldn't want to put a hamper on innovation, particularly when the electrical automotive industry is so nascent.

ensignavenger 8y ago

Unless they can make charging as quick as filling a tank with gas, there is a lot of opportunity in location and surrounding services, provided while the batteries are being charged.

Theodores 8y ago
Are there any U.S. hotel chains that are in on this? Hotels have facilities that aren't used after breakfast until the evening, however they still have to have a lot of staff on-site during these hours. You could have nice food and coffee instead of motorway service station junk, with booking facilities so you can have that coffee ready as you walk through the door and your parking spot for the charging reserved. This could work really well in the more scenic parts of the world where there is a lot of the infrastructure built out already, just the right plugs with the right volts and amps needed.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  A large number of high-end hotels have Tesla "destination chargers", which you can generally use if you eat in their restaurant. I've been out wine tasting and have run into Tesla destination chargers.
  - AshleyGrant 8y ago
    Not just "high-end" hotels. On my recent trip round-trip Florida-Texas drive in my Model 3, I stayed at a Hilton Garden Inn and two Hampton Inns that had Tesla Destination Chargers. It was nice to pull in with 10-20% charge and pull out in the AM fully charged and not paid anything extra for it.
dpkonofa 8y ago
It's almost there. A Supercharger can charge in about 20 minutes and the navigation in the car shows you food stops and amenities near the Supercharger and then sends you a push notification when the car is nearly completely charged. Considering that this experience is more rare than me being able to charge the car every night at home instead of having to stop at a gas station ever, I think the trade off is in Tesla's favor.

dpkonofa 8y ago

It's funny you say that because that's the exact reason Superchargers exist. The other chargers in question charge incredibly slowly compared to a Supercharger. Teslas main advantage was that they had to foresight to realize that people wouldn't swap to electric vehicles unless they could have a similar experience to pulling up, filling up your tank, and driving off. A Supercharger is the closest thing - 0 to full in 20 to 25 minutes. The Blink/Chargepoint/WhateverElse networks are a full charge in 8 to 12 hours.

ryacko 8y ago
Realistically, people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. But people tend to be dominated by edge cases instead of giving up a small amount of mobility.
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  >people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. What is this based on? I know several people with electric cars and none of us take planes and rent cars on trips unless they're to another country. I drive to California and Austin all the time and the Tesla is the first car that I don't have to stay the night charging for.
  - user9995 8y ago
    >What is this based on? This is the "everything is Silicon Valley" view of the world. Another hilarious one is: "why doesn't everyone just bike to work?"
shaklee3 8y ago
20 to 25 minutes is still an eternity compared to gasoline. Yes, it's faster than the other chargers, but that's about the same amount of time an oil change takes. That's something people have to plan around since it's not 3-4 minutes.

nickik 8y ago

Technology always starts out exclusive and then is then broadens out. Tesla network gives them a huge advantage because now they are in control over how this process is gone happen.

Latteland 8y ago

Tesla can do superchargers and almost all other 3rd party chargers. They aren't lock in, they are like a super-capable system. Only other cars can't use tesla chargers.