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How long do you think the current Supercharger network will be a large competitive advantage? I agree with Benedict Evan's point that electric charging will be

How long do you think the current Supercharger network will be a large competitive advantage? I agree with Benedict Evan's point that electric charging will become a commodity: https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2018/8/29/tesla-software-and-disruption https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2018/8/29/tesla-soft...

olivermarks 8y ago
Wouldn't it be awful if you could only buy Ford gasoline from Ford gas stations? The lock in model is attractive until you think about broader implication, I agree with Evans too that it will be a commodity race to the bottom for recharging, with cost introduced for the power
- stephengillie 8y ago
  General Motors owns a patent on leaded gasoline. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-engines https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-dis...
  - frostburg 8y ago
    Invented by the same person that invented Freon, too. Talented chemical engineer but possibly the most harmful human to have ever lived by some metrics.
    - JetSpiegel 8y ago
      The same guy who was killed by his own apparatus to get him out of bed after he caught polio. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_...
      - burger_moon 8y ago
        His whole wiki reads like a horror story. So many people died of lead poisoning at DuPont where they were developing it. > Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems.
- Mongus 8y ago
  Tesla's aren't locked into using Tesla chargers. They do have a proprietary connector on the vehicles but they come with several adapters including J1772. Superchargers are a phenomenal perk, not a lock in.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Are Superchargers free to use by people who have not bought Teslas?
    - rconti 8y ago
      No, but the point is that this is not a reason Tesla won't succeed, it's just a reason that superchargers suck for non-Tesla EV owners. From a business standpoint, this is the right place to be; lock others out, but don't lock your customers in.
      - Mongus 8y ago
        Exactly. I don't think Tesla would have anywhere near the sales they've had without Superchargers. The other EV manufacturers need to figure out how to offer something similar if they want any chance of competing.
    - Mongus 8y ago
      Superchargers only work with Teslas due to some signaling and they aren't free for all Teslas. You can get an adapter that goes from a Tesla connector to J1772 but it won't work at a Supercharger, just home or destination chargers.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - jcheng 8y ago
      No, but https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supe... > One question posed during Wednesday's Tesla quarterly earnings call involved allowing other manufacturers to access Tesla's supercharger network and Elon Musk's response was surprising. > "This is not a walled garden." > By that Musk means that he's open to allowing other EV manufacturers to configure their vehicles to be able to use the Superchargers. He stipulates that these manufacturers would have to pay their fair share of the costs and would have to either adopt Tesla's plug standard or include an adapter in their vehicles.
- Patrick_Devine 8y ago
  I agree that that model would be awful, but I think maybe that that is too simple of an analogy. We do already have fuel stations which are exclusive right now, in the form of card access only truck stops which only dispense diesel fuel. There are also similar fuel distribution mechanisms in the marine and aviation industries which dispense different types of fuels (Bunker fuel, 100LL, Jet-A, etc.) which can't be used in automotive applications. The biggest difference here is that electricity, thankfully, is the same in any form, and the key differentiator is the speed at which you can deliver it. I definitely hope that we can agree on better, faster, common, charge delivery formats, but I wouldn't want to put a hamper on innovation, particularly when the electrical automotive industry is so nascent.
- ensignavenger 8y ago
  Unless they can make charging as quick as filling a tank with gas, there is a lot of opportunity in location and surrounding services, provided while the batteries are being charged.
  - Theodores 8y ago
    Are there any U.S. hotel chains that are in on this? Hotels have facilities that aren't used after breakfast until the evening, however they still have to have a lot of staff on-site during these hours. You could have nice food and coffee instead of motorway service station junk, with booking facilities so you can have that coffee ready as you walk through the door and your parking spot for the charging reserved. This could work really well in the more scenic parts of the world where there is a lot of the infrastructure built out already, just the right plugs with the right volts and amps needed.
    - greglindahl 8y ago
      A large number of high-end hotels have Tesla "destination chargers", which you can generally use if you eat in their restaurant. I've been out wine tasting and have run into Tesla destination chargers.
      - AshleyGrant 8y ago
        Not just "high-end" hotels. On my recent trip round-trip Florida-Texas drive in my Model 3, I stayed at a Hilton Garden Inn and two Hampton Inns that had Tesla Destination Chargers. It was nice to pull in with 10-20% charge and pull out in the AM fully charged and not paid anything extra for it.
  - dpkonofa 8y ago
    It's almost there. A Supercharger can charge in about 20 minutes and the navigation in the car shows you food stops and amenities near the Supercharger and then sends you a push notification when the car is nearly completely charged. Considering that this experience is more rare than me being able to charge the car every night at home instead of having to stop at a gas station ever, I think the trade off is in Tesla's favor.
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  It's funny you say that because that's the exact reason Superchargers exist. The other chargers in question charge incredibly slowly compared to a Supercharger. Teslas main advantage was that they had to foresight to realize that people wouldn't swap to electric vehicles unless they could have a similar experience to pulling up, filling up your tank, and driving off. A Supercharger is the closest thing - 0 to full in 20 to 25 minutes. The Blink/Chargepoint/WhateverElse networks are a full charge in 8 to 12 hours.
  - ryacko 8y ago
    Realistically, people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. But people tend to be dominated by edge cases instead of giving up a small amount of mobility.
    - dpkonofa 8y ago
      >people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. What is this based on? I know several people with electric cars and none of us take planes and rent cars on trips unless they're to another country. I drive to California and Austin all the time and the Tesla is the first car that I don't have to stay the night charging for.
      - user9995 8y ago
        >What is this based on? This is the "everything is Silicon Valley" view of the world. Another hilarious one is: "why doesn't everyone just bike to work?"
  - shaklee3 8y ago
    20 to 25 minutes is still an eternity compared to gasoline. Yes, it's faster than the other chargers, but that's about the same amount of time an oil change takes. That's something people have to plan around since it's not 3-4 minutes.
- nickik 8y ago
  Technology always starts out exclusive and then is then broadens out. Tesla network gives them a huge advantage because now they are in control over how this process is gone happen.
- Latteland 8y ago
  Tesla can do superchargers and almost all other 3rd party chargers. They aren't lock in, they are like a super-capable system. Only other cars can't use tesla chargers.
andrewmunsell 8y ago
Eventually, yes, it will become a commodity. But the issue is, someone has to spend a lot of money to build out these chargers. Tesla has a big incentive to do it-- their very survival depended on early adopters willing to buy their car, which also means they need a place to charge it. Being able to go 100 miles from your house before you have to turn around was never going to work for car owners, hence Tesla's initial Supercharger build out. But other car manufacturers, for whatever reason, don't get this. They build their compliance cars with a modest investment in EVs, but honestly, they aren't very good. The Leaf has its niche-- it's a good city car with low range and low cost. The Bolt really is one of the first non-Tesla players with a decent range, yet you can't drive it from Seattle to Yosemite because the lack of chargers and GM isn't investing anything in them. The same goes for BMW. Volkswagen is forced to build chargers due to the diesel settlement, but ironically without their cheating and forced investment in EV, there would be fewer chargers out there than there are today (or in the near future). Maybe I'm wrong and hydrogen or some other form of fuel will win, but if EVs do, car manufacturers will be scrambling to catch up and invest in chargers. I don't think this will happen soon, but maybe in 5 years they'll start thinking about it. Really, if they wait until the Model Y in 2020 and Tesla starts eating their lunch in the biggest segment in the US (CUVs), it might wake them up sooner.
- crwalker 8y ago
  Agree - Tesla had an existential incentive to build chargers, but other car makers would prefer to wait and see (and let someone else build out the commodity chargers).
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Other carmakers don't need to build their own charging network. It's already being handled for them by thousands of businesses installing standards-compatible chargers. There are 3 new chargers on my block that were installed within the last month. Another 6 scheduled to be installed in my building's garage in the next month. That's in addition to the dozens that are already located in my part of LA. In Santa Monica, the city installed several dozen chargers in their city parking structures and lots. The Inglewood Stadium and the Dodgers are installing chargers in the off-season. Most malls have dedicated spots for charging EVs. Nearly every parking structure in Century City has EV chargers.... Meanwhile, the closest Tesla superchargers are nearly double-digit miles away, far from the freeways, so at best 30 minutes away without traffic and up to 3 hours away with traffic. And since there are so few of them, you basically cross your fingers and hope that one of them is free when you get there.
rconti 8y ago
I sure hope it does become a commodity! However, Tesla's network is not a disadvantage here; they can charge (just not FAST charge) from other chargers, and the fast charging can be 'bolted on' later, I'm sure, via an adapter and software update.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  The example from the past is that Tesla eventually came out with a Chaedemo adapter that worked with all existing S/X cars: https://shop.tesla.com/ca/en/product/vehicle-accessories/model-s_x-chademo-adapter.html https://shop.tesla.com/ca/en/product/vehicle-accessories/mod...
schiffern 8y ago
>electric charging will become a commodity Alas, I would have thought the same for ISPs. Any reason why EV charging won't naturally evolve into a similar overpriced, regulator capturing, locale-by-locale monopoly? I'm talking about the subset of the EV owners without home charging. Currently this number is small, but as battery prices drop and EVs become the de-facto 'regular car,' there's ~60% of the population who have no "at-cost" home charging (being locked-in to whatever exclusive vendor their apartment complex chooses). In this respect EVs are very different from gasoline vehicles, and I say this as a big supporter of EVs. I can drive across town to buy gas, but I can't park my car across town overnight. The problem with competing firms is that eventually someone wins.
- yurishimo 8y ago
  The thing is ISPs almost became a commodity until we figured out we could get higher speeds with cable infrastructure. We all remember the local phone company offering dial-up back in the 90s. In many European countries, ISPs are a commodity since the owners of the cable have to provide access to anyone at reasonable market rates. That's why the fight for net neutrality is so important.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
  The comparison to your apartment example would be pay-laundry, not ISPs. ISPs gain monopolies because of the last-mile infrastructure. Charging services are quite interchangeable as electric service is already running to buildings.
  - schiffern 8y ago
    >Charging services are quite interchangeable Not for the tenants themselves. Tenants need permission from the owner to install charging infrastructure, and the owner has little incentive to allow competition because the vendor gives them a cut of the [overpriced] charging fee. Even California's progressive tenant EV charger law[1] doesn't apply if 10% (!) of parking spots already have chargers. Your example of pay laundry is instructive. In theory laundry service remains interchangeable (after all, "water/electric service is already running to the buildings"), but in practice the owner simply forbids tenants from installing their own laundry machines (typically citing flood risk). [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB2565 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
jread 8y ago
I disagree - I've been driving EVs exclusively (Ford Focus Electric followed by Tesla MS) since 2013 in So Cal and can attest to how poor user experience is with 3rd party charge networks. First of all, there are 4+ distinct networks each requiring separate account/payment setup and RFIDs. They are often broken, fully used, overpriced or cumbersome to start. Most are L2 with 20-30A - charging at <20 MPH. Fast chargers are sparse - and this is in California where the most EVs are sold in the US. When I leave the state, charge networks become almost nonexistent in many areas. To the contrary, user experience at Tesla superchargers is great. There are enough of them, evenly distributed, that I never have range anxiety, they work, they are usually not over crowded (although getting busier), they are free or at cost, they are high powered, usually located near nice amenities, and they are simple - pull in, plug in and wait 15-45 minutes. I don't see anything on the horizon from other manufacturers that will even remotely approximate what Tesla offers today with supercharging. Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there.
- user9995 8y ago
  >Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there. So people believe that Tesla is going to upend the entire auto industry, but can't believe that some company will figure out how to build nice charging stations? So many contradictions in the arguments here. Yes, the Supercharger network was, basically, necessary for Tesla to reach a critical acceptance level. But operating and maintaining those stations is not free. The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. It's a no-brainer. If/when EV demand reaches those levels, it will happen.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    > The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. Do they? I was under the impression most fueling stations had standard single-phase 200A hookups to the grid. So, at minimum, that would mean an electrical upgrade, no?
  - Robotbeat 8y ago
maxxxxx 8y ago
I winder if the Spuerchargers will at some point become an outdated liability once (if) other manufacturers decide on a standard. Being a first mover often can become a problem.
- Robotbeat 8y ago
  They’ve already decided on CHAdeMO and CCS, both of which are usually much slower and have a huge, unwieldy, and expensive plug. It’s not that hard for Tesla to adapt to a new standard, too. The power electronics are the same, just a different plug and protocol. Tesla’s can connect to a CHAdeMO charger with a relatively cheap adapter.
erikb 8y ago
Space stations will become a commodity as well. What I mean to say is, every product that is used by almost everybody will become a commodity at some point. That is not the question. The question is a) How long can you keep it from not becoming a commodity? b) How can you build your business model as market leader around it being a commodity? E.g. gas stops can be considered a commodity at this point, but the powerhouse oil companies still own the whole thing and make hundreds of billions out of gas sales. If Tesla can use their leverage and tech-know-how to get into that position for electrical gas stations they might be in a good position to take that leadership position for a generation or two in providing electricity for the cars, making more money than with actual car sales. So for Tesla, as much as for the not-yet-existing space station business, the fact that they will become commodities at some point is more of a strategic detail than a kill factor.

olivermarks 8y ago

Wouldn't it be awful if you could only buy Ford gasoline from Ford gas stations? The lock in model is attractive until you think about broader implication, I agree with Evans too that it will be a commodity race to the bottom for recharging, with cost introduced for the power

stephengillie 8y ago
General Motors owns a patent on leaded gasoline. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-engines https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-dis...
- frostburg 8y ago
  Invented by the same person that invented Freon, too. Talented chemical engineer but possibly the most harmful human to have ever lived by some metrics.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    The same guy who was killed by his own apparatus to get him out of bed after he caught polio. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.#Later_life_...
    - burger_moon 8y ago
      His whole wiki reads like a horror story. So many people died of lead poisoning at DuPont where they were developing it. > Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems.
Mongus 8y ago
Tesla's aren't locked into using Tesla chargers. They do have a proprietary connector on the vehicles but they come with several adapters including J1772. Superchargers are a phenomenal perk, not a lock in.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Are Superchargers free to use by people who have not bought Teslas?
  - rconti 8y ago
    No, but the point is that this is not a reason Tesla won't succeed, it's just a reason that superchargers suck for non-Tesla EV owners. From a business standpoint, this is the right place to be; lock others out, but don't lock your customers in.
    - Mongus 8y ago
      Exactly. I don't think Tesla would have anywhere near the sales they've had without Superchargers. The other EV manufacturers need to figure out how to offer something similar if they want any chance of competing.
  - Mongus 8y ago
    Superchargers only work with Teslas due to some signaling and they aren't free for all Teslas. You can get an adapter that goes from a Tesla connector to J1772 but it won't work at a Supercharger, just home or destination chargers.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jcheng 8y ago
    No, but https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supe... > One question posed during Wednesday's Tesla quarterly earnings call involved allowing other manufacturers to access Tesla's supercharger network and Elon Musk's response was surprising. > "This is not a walled garden." > By that Musk means that he's open to allowing other EV manufacturers to configure their vehicles to be able to use the Superchargers. He stipulates that these manufacturers would have to pay their fair share of the costs and would have to either adopt Tesla's plug standard or include an adapter in their vehicles.
Patrick_Devine 8y ago
I agree that that model would be awful, but I think maybe that that is too simple of an analogy. We do already have fuel stations which are exclusive right now, in the form of card access only truck stops which only dispense diesel fuel. There are also similar fuel distribution mechanisms in the marine and aviation industries which dispense different types of fuels (Bunker fuel, 100LL, Jet-A, etc.) which can't be used in automotive applications. The biggest difference here is that electricity, thankfully, is the same in any form, and the key differentiator is the speed at which you can deliver it. I definitely hope that we can agree on better, faster, common, charge delivery formats, but I wouldn't want to put a hamper on innovation, particularly when the electrical automotive industry is so nascent.
ensignavenger 8y ago
Unless they can make charging as quick as filling a tank with gas, there is a lot of opportunity in location and surrounding services, provided while the batteries are being charged.
- Theodores 8y ago
  Are there any U.S. hotel chains that are in on this? Hotels have facilities that aren't used after breakfast until the evening, however they still have to have a lot of staff on-site during these hours. You could have nice food and coffee instead of motorway service station junk, with booking facilities so you can have that coffee ready as you walk through the door and your parking spot for the charging reserved. This could work really well in the more scenic parts of the world where there is a lot of the infrastructure built out already, just the right plugs with the right volts and amps needed.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    A large number of high-end hotels have Tesla "destination chargers", which you can generally use if you eat in their restaurant. I've been out wine tasting and have run into Tesla destination chargers.
    - AshleyGrant 8y ago
      Not just "high-end" hotels. On my recent trip round-trip Florida-Texas drive in my Model 3, I stayed at a Hilton Garden Inn and two Hampton Inns that had Tesla Destination Chargers. It was nice to pull in with 10-20% charge and pull out in the AM fully charged and not paid anything extra for it.
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  It's almost there. A Supercharger can charge in about 20 minutes and the navigation in the car shows you food stops and amenities near the Supercharger and then sends you a push notification when the car is nearly completely charged. Considering that this experience is more rare than me being able to charge the car every night at home instead of having to stop at a gas station ever, I think the trade off is in Tesla's favor.
dpkonofa 8y ago
It's funny you say that because that's the exact reason Superchargers exist. The other chargers in question charge incredibly slowly compared to a Supercharger. Teslas main advantage was that they had to foresight to realize that people wouldn't swap to electric vehicles unless they could have a similar experience to pulling up, filling up your tank, and driving off. A Supercharger is the closest thing - 0 to full in 20 to 25 minutes. The Blink/Chargepoint/WhateverElse networks are a full charge in 8 to 12 hours.
- ryacko 8y ago
  Realistically, people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. But people tend to be dominated by edge cases instead of giving up a small amount of mobility.
  - dpkonofa 8y ago
    >people who could afford an electric car are more likely to take a plane and rent a car when traveling, unless they travel all the time as part of their job, then they’d be using ridesharing exclusively. What is this based on? I know several people with electric cars and none of us take planes and rent cars on trips unless they're to another country. I drive to California and Austin all the time and the Tesla is the first car that I don't have to stay the night charging for.
    - user9995 8y ago
      >What is this based on? This is the "everything is Silicon Valley" view of the world. Another hilarious one is: "why doesn't everyone just bike to work?"
- shaklee3 8y ago
  20 to 25 minutes is still an eternity compared to gasoline. Yes, it's faster than the other chargers, but that's about the same amount of time an oil change takes. That's something people have to plan around since it's not 3-4 minutes.
nickik 8y ago
Technology always starts out exclusive and then is then broadens out. Tesla network gives them a huge advantage because now they are in control over how this process is gone happen.
Latteland 8y ago
Tesla can do superchargers and almost all other 3rd party chargers. They aren't lock in, they are like a super-capable system. Only other cars can't use tesla chargers.

andrewmunsell 8y ago

Eventually, yes, it will become a commodity. But the issue is, someone has to spend a lot of money to build out these chargers. Tesla has a big incentive to do it-- their very survival depended on early adopters willing to buy their car, which also means they need a place to charge it. Being able to go 100 miles from your house before you have to turn around was never going to work for car owners, hence Tesla's initial Supercharger build out. But other car manufacturers, for whatever reason, don't get this. They build their compliance cars with a modest investment in EVs, but honestly, they aren't very good. The Leaf has its niche-- it's a good city car with low range and low cost. The Bolt really is one of the first non-Tesla players with a decent range, yet you can't drive it from Seattle to Yosemite because the lack of chargers and GM isn't investing anything in them. The same goes for BMW. Volkswagen is forced to build chargers due to the diesel settlement, but ironically without their cheating and forced investment in EV, there would be fewer chargers out there than there are today (or in the near future). Maybe I'm wrong and hydrogen or some other form of fuel will win, but if EVs do, car manufacturers will be scrambling to catch up and invest in chargers. I don't think this will happen soon, but maybe in 5 years they'll start thinking about it. Really, if they wait until the Model Y in 2020 and Tesla starts eating their lunch in the biggest segment in the US (CUVs), it might wake them up sooner.

crwalker 8y ago
Agree - Tesla had an existential incentive to build chargers, but other car makers would prefer to wait and see (and let someone else build out the commodity chargers).
gamblor956 8y ago
Other carmakers don't need to build their own charging network. It's already being handled for them by thousands of businesses installing standards-compatible chargers. There are 3 new chargers on my block that were installed within the last month. Another 6 scheduled to be installed in my building's garage in the next month. That's in addition to the dozens that are already located in my part of LA. In Santa Monica, the city installed several dozen chargers in their city parking structures and lots. The Inglewood Stadium and the Dodgers are installing chargers in the off-season. Most malls have dedicated spots for charging EVs. Nearly every parking structure in Century City has EV chargers.... Meanwhile, the closest Tesla superchargers are nearly double-digit miles away, far from the freeways, so at best 30 minutes away without traffic and up to 3 hours away with traffic. And since there are so few of them, you basically cross your fingers and hope that one of them is free when you get there.

rconti 8y ago

I sure hope it does become a commodity! However, Tesla's network is not a disadvantage here; they can charge (just not FAST charge) from other chargers, and the fast charging can be 'bolted on' later, I'm sure, via an adapter and software update.

greglindahl 8y ago
The example from the past is that Tesla eventually came out with a Chaedemo adapter that worked with all existing S/X cars: https://shop.tesla.com/ca/en/product/vehicle-accessories/model-s_x-chademo-adapter.html https://shop.tesla.com/ca/en/product/vehicle-accessories/mod...

schiffern 8y ago

>electric charging will become a commodity Alas, I would have thought the same for ISPs. Any reason why EV charging won't naturally evolve into a similar overpriced, regulator capturing, locale-by-locale monopoly? I'm talking about the subset of the EV owners without home charging. Currently this number is small, but as battery prices drop and EVs become the de-facto 'regular car,' there's ~60% of the population who have no "at-cost" home charging (being locked-in to whatever exclusive vendor their apartment complex chooses). In this respect EVs are very different from gasoline vehicles, and I say this as a big supporter of EVs. I can drive across town to buy gas, but I can't park my car across town overnight. The problem with competing firms is that eventually someone wins.

yurishimo 8y ago
The thing is ISPs almost became a commodity until we figured out we could get higher speeds with cable infrastructure. We all remember the local phone company offering dial-up back in the 90s. In many European countries, ISPs are a commodity since the owners of the cable have to provide access to anyone at reasonable market rates. That's why the fight for net neutrality is so important.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
The comparison to your apartment example would be pay-laundry, not ISPs. ISPs gain monopolies because of the last-mile infrastructure. Charging services are quite interchangeable as electric service is already running to buildings.
- schiffern 8y ago
  >Charging services are quite interchangeable Not for the tenants themselves. Tenants need permission from the owner to install charging infrastructure, and the owner has little incentive to allow competition because the vendor gives them a cut of the [overpriced] charging fee. Even California's progressive tenant EV charger law[1] doesn't apply if 10% (!) of parking spots already have chargers. Your example of pay laundry is instructive. In theory laundry service remains interchangeable (after all, "water/electric service is already running to the buildings"), but in practice the owner simply forbids tenants from installing their own laundry machines (typically citing flood risk). [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB2565 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...

jread 8y ago

I disagree - I've been driving EVs exclusively (Ford Focus Electric followed by Tesla MS) since 2013 in So Cal and can attest to how poor user experience is with 3rd party charge networks. First of all, there are 4+ distinct networks each requiring separate account/payment setup and RFIDs. They are often broken, fully used, overpriced or cumbersome to start. Most are L2 with 20-30A - charging at <20 MPH. Fast chargers are sparse - and this is in California where the most EVs are sold in the US. When I leave the state, charge networks become almost nonexistent in many areas. To the contrary, user experience at Tesla superchargers is great. There are enough of them, evenly distributed, that I never have range anxiety, they work, they are usually not over crowded (although getting busier), they are free or at cost, they are high powered, usually located near nice amenities, and they are simple - pull in, plug in and wait 15-45 minutes. I don't see anything on the horizon from other manufacturers that will even remotely approximate what Tesla offers today with supercharging. Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there.

user9995 8y ago
>Partnership/expansion of for-profit networks will never get there. So people believe that Tesla is going to upend the entire auto industry, but can't believe that some company will figure out how to build nice charging stations? So many contradictions in the arguments here. Yes, the Supercharger network was, basically, necessary for Tesla to reach a critical acceptance level. But operating and maintaining those stations is not free. The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. It's a no-brainer. If/when EV demand reaches those levels, it will happen.
- ethbro 8y ago
  > The idea that the major fuelling stations won't start adding fast chargers is incredibly naive. They already have the infrastructure and real estate. Do they? I was under the impression most fueling stations had standard single-phase 200A hookups to the grid. So, at minimum, that would mean an electrical upgrade, no?
- Robotbeat 8y ago

maxxxxx 8y ago

I winder if the Spuerchargers will at some point become an outdated liability once (if) other manufacturers decide on a standard. Being a first mover often can become a problem.

Robotbeat 8y ago
They’ve already decided on CHAdeMO and CCS, both of which are usually much slower and have a huge, unwieldy, and expensive plug. It’s not that hard for Tesla to adapt to a new standard, too. The power electronics are the same, just a different plug and protocol. Tesla’s can connect to a CHAdeMO charger with a relatively cheap adapter.

erikb 8y ago

Space stations will become a commodity as well. What I mean to say is, every product that is used by almost everybody will become a commodity at some point. That is not the question. The question is a) How long can you keep it from not becoming a commodity? b) How can you build your business model as market leader around it being a commodity? E.g. gas stops can be considered a commodity at this point, but the powerhouse oil companies still own the whole thing and make hundreds of billions out of gas sales. If Tesla can use their leverage and tech-know-how to get into that position for electrical gas stations they might be in a good position to take that leadership position for a generation or two in providing electricity for the cars, making more money than with actual car sales. So for Tesla, as much as for the not-yet-existing space station business, the fact that they will become commodities at some point is more of a strategic detail than a kill factor.