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Maybe it's my fault, but I haven't found "easily accessible data" on the quality of elementary and middle school education, which is something a lot of people s

Maybe it's my fault, but I haven't found "easily accessible data" on the quality of elementary and middle school education, which is something a lot of people seem to be ignoring in this discussion. Sure, people might be motivated to immigrate here by your universities. Even when I was a teenager growing up in an Eastern European country, I had heard of MIT and dreamed of studying there. But there's a long road to go down before you arrive at your university's doors. Another thing I would like to point out is that an important aspect of an education system is the access to it. It's kind of like your health care: some of the most advanced treatments are available here, but there's a huge inequality preventing vast numbers of people from having access to those treatments. Bottom line is that the overall quality of your education system should not only be measured by the quality and prestige of your universities, but a myriad of other factors that influence the final outcome -- that outcome being an apparent shortage of your own skilled citizens.

camelNotation 8y ago
If you want your children to be educated well in most regions of the United States, you either need to do it yourself or through private schools. There are a small handful of public schools that have the funding and leadership to do it well, but they are rare - and usually located in the richest counties. You can't pay attention to achievement metrics or school ranking systems either. They are almost all relative to American schools only and fail to measure well across different global education models. You may find your local public school as an "A" grade from some rating agency, but it means nothing. The only reliable metric is how many of the graduates are accepted into top tier liberal arts colleges. Frankly, I'm not even trying any of that mess with my children. We teach them ourselves.
at-fates-hands 8y ago
> that outcome being an apparent shortage of your own skilled citizens. The interesting thing is even when we had millions of people out of work who worked in technical fields, SV and other major tech hubs were pushing for even more H1-B's. It really has nothing to do with skilled citizens and more to do with the salaries they demand which tend to be on the scale of 1-3 times more expensive to hire and keep then the off-shore people they're hiring. Just an anecdote for you: I was hired as a contractor on a financial application at a major health care provider here in the states. I was the only US born developer on the entire team. That included developers, project managers, and scrum mangers, On a team of 18 people, I was the only American. Several times I overheard team members talking about salary and what they were getting paid. It was shocking to me that I was getting almost twice as much as they were per hour for virtually the same work. It's not the skills or education that are lacking, it's the cost of the labor which is considerably lower for off-shore talent or H1-B contractors.
- afuchs 8y ago
  From my personal experience and observation, a large amount of employers that say that they can't fill their open positions, skilled or unskilled, have unrealistically high standards. They would rather leave a position unfilled than risk making a bad hiring decision. To give them a benefit of doubt, they might have more to loose from a bad hire than a successful one. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with the few companies that are famous for pushing the boundaries of the H-1B visa.
DataWorker 8y ago
A shortage of skilled citizens is another way of saying costly labor. Better access for US citizens to universities and healthcare will not be gained by importing ever cheaper highly skilled labor, especially labor that like you is here to take what they can, selfishly, before they jump ship. The k-12 numbers are easy to find. Google Pisa.
- CodeMage 8y ago
  > Better access for US citizens to universities and healthcare will not be gained by importing ever cheaper highly skilled labor I believe I already stated that more immigration is not the solution, in my first comment in this thread. > especially labor that like you is here to take what they can, selfishly, before they jump ship. What's with the hostility and personal attacks? I'm paying the same taxes are everyone around me, but without the right to influence the system because I can't vote. So I can't see what makes me selfish, except the fact that I plan to "jump ship", as you put it. I came to this country with high hopes and expectations, with the idea that I can not only enrich my life and that of my family, but also work on marvelous tech and make the world better. What my actual experience turned out to be is out of scope of this discussion, but would certainly be a prerequisite for judging me fairly.
  - DataWorker 8y ago
    I’m not judging you. You came here because you had personal desires that, noble or not, were not fulfilled. And you will leave for that same reason. That seems like pretty common human behavior to me and so I make no judgements about your morals, but I will point out that a less selfish way of seeing the world might lead you to ask yourself how you can have a positive impact and make your new home a better place. Perhaps that sense of personal responsibility is an American affectation. As one of our leaders once said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. That seems even more apropos for those who have made the conscious decision to adopt this place as their home.
    - leetcrew 8y ago
scottlocklin 8y ago
Google "PISA scores"

camelNotation 8y ago

If you want your children to be educated well in most regions of the United States, you either need to do it yourself or through private schools. There are a small handful of public schools that have the funding and leadership to do it well, but they are rare - and usually located in the richest counties. You can't pay attention to achievement metrics or school ranking systems either. They are almost all relative to American schools only and fail to measure well across different global education models. You may find your local public school as an "A" grade from some rating agency, but it means nothing. The only reliable metric is how many of the graduates are accepted into top tier liberal arts colleges. Frankly, I'm not even trying any of that mess with my children. We teach them ourselves.

at-fates-hands 8y ago

> that outcome being an apparent shortage of your own skilled citizens. The interesting thing is even when we had millions of people out of work who worked in technical fields, SV and other major tech hubs were pushing for even more H1-B's. It really has nothing to do with skilled citizens and more to do with the salaries they demand which tend to be on the scale of 1-3 times more expensive to hire and keep then the off-shore people they're hiring. Just an anecdote for you: I was hired as a contractor on a financial application at a major health care provider here in the states. I was the only US born developer on the entire team. That included developers, project managers, and scrum mangers, On a team of 18 people, I was the only American. Several times I overheard team members talking about salary and what they were getting paid. It was shocking to me that I was getting almost twice as much as they were per hour for virtually the same work. It's not the skills or education that are lacking, it's the cost of the labor which is considerably lower for off-shore talent or H1-B contractors.

afuchs 8y ago
From my personal experience and observation, a large amount of employers that say that they can't fill their open positions, skilled or unskilled, have unrealistically high standards. They would rather leave a position unfilled than risk making a bad hiring decision. To give them a benefit of doubt, they might have more to loose from a bad hire than a successful one. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with the few companies that are famous for pushing the boundaries of the H-1B visa.

DataWorker 8y ago

A shortage of skilled citizens is another way of saying costly labor. Better access for US citizens to universities and healthcare will not be gained by importing ever cheaper highly skilled labor, especially labor that like you is here to take what they can, selfishly, before they jump ship. The k-12 numbers are easy to find. Google Pisa.

CodeMage 8y ago
> Better access for US citizens to universities and healthcare will not be gained by importing ever cheaper highly skilled labor I believe I already stated that more immigration is not the solution, in my first comment in this thread. > especially labor that like you is here to take what they can, selfishly, before they jump ship. What's with the hostility and personal attacks? I'm paying the same taxes are everyone around me, but without the right to influence the system because I can't vote. So I can't see what makes me selfish, except the fact that I plan to "jump ship", as you put it. I came to this country with high hopes and expectations, with the idea that I can not only enrich my life and that of my family, but also work on marvelous tech and make the world better. What my actual experience turned out to be is out of scope of this discussion, but would certainly be a prerequisite for judging me fairly.
- DataWorker 8y ago
  I’m not judging you. You came here because you had personal desires that, noble or not, were not fulfilled. And you will leave for that same reason. That seems like pretty common human behavior to me and so I make no judgements about your morals, but I will point out that a less selfish way of seeing the world might lead you to ask yourself how you can have a positive impact and make your new home a better place. Perhaps that sense of personal responsibility is an American affectation. As one of our leaders once said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. That seems even more apropos for those who have made the conscious decision to adopt this place as their home.
  - leetcrew 8y ago

scottlocklin 8y ago

Google "PISA scores"