4 ms·

I like Django as much as the next guy, but the framework-obsession that has developed over the past few years does indeed tick me off. There are certain instan

by apl 16y ago

I like Django as much as the next guy, but the framework-obsession that has developed over the past few years does indeed tick me off. There are certain instances (i.e., full-blown web applications) that benefit a lot from employing abstraction tools such as RoR or Django. Equally, whenever there's a lot of variation in the underlying technology, give me a framework! jQuery is a wonderful example for this. However, there's a time and place for such frameworks, and that is not "always, everywhere". Really simple CRUD stuff doesn't require Rails. CSS grid frameworks are a ridiculously inefficient mess. (Aye; even in prototyping.) Most template languages are silly and unnecessary. Et cetera. Sure, it's a rant. But the man has a point. Web frameworks are enabling a whole generation who can't even use a scripting language without relying on plenty of magic. A modicum of abstraction, when sensible? Bring it on. Relentless black box programming? That has its limits.

lulin 16y ago
"Web frameworks are enabling a whole generation who can't even use a scripting language without relying on plenty of magic." I don't really think people program like this. When I tried using rails 2 years ago, all the magic it was doing behind the scenes actually made it impossible for me to use it, as I had no idea what magic was there and how it related to the underlying system. After some time of writing web apps "by hand", then trying out sinatra and padrino, I just recently looked at Rails again and suddenly understood how to use it. What I want to say is that I don't think that the magic Rails does leads to stupid programmers. It will only help those that actually know what they want to do and make the repetitive parts easier. Honestly, I don't want to write a login system with hashing etc. ever again. I don't want to think about how to save old versions of the entries in the database. I don't want to write my own form helpers. I am happy that Rails does this for me and I can spend time thinking about the interesting parts of my program.
mnutt 16y ago
I would argue the opposite -- that really simple CRUD stuff really does need a framework. Why waste your time doing mind-numbing work when you can let the framework do it for you? On the other hand, with full-blown web applications that do something out of the ordinary (long-running requests, etc) it might be better to drop down a level of abstraction.

by apl 16y ago

lulin 16y ago

"Web frameworks are enabling a whole generation who can't even use a scripting language without relying on plenty of magic." I don't really think people program like this. When I tried using rails 2 years ago, all the magic it was doing behind the scenes actually made it impossible for me to use it, as I had no idea what magic was there and how it related to the underlying system. After some time of writing web apps "by hand", then trying out sinatra and padrino, I just recently looked at Rails again and suddenly understood how to use it. What I want to say is that I don't think that the magic Rails does leads to stupid programmers. It will only help those that actually know what they want to do and make the repetitive parts easier. Honestly, I don't want to write a login system with hashing etc. ever again. I don't want to think about how to save old versions of the entries in the database. I don't want to write my own form helpers. I am happy that Rails does this for me and I can spend time thinking about the interesting parts of my program.

mnutt 16y ago

I would argue the opposite -- that really simple CRUD stuff really does need a framework. Why waste your time doing mind-numbing work when you can let the framework do it for you? On the other hand, with full-blown web applications that do something out of the ordinary (long-running requests, etc) it might be better to drop down a level of abstraction.