6 ms·

You want good healthcare, good salary, the real Autobahns, good houses and you are talented, have at least a bachelor in IT and are willing to try something out

by geff82 8y ago

You want good healthcare, good salary, the real Autobahns, good houses and you are talented, have at least a bachelor in IT and are willing to try something out? Come over to Germany. Honestly, no I other country I know of has such a fast and well thought out way to permanent residence for foreign talent than Germany. If you are interested in working here, drop me a message to eriklistserve at gmail dot com.

dunpeal 8y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, a friend of mine who looked into it, all he could get in Berlin was less than half his American salary, while his taxes were very substantially higher. His take-home would have been slashed by about 70%, so he gave up the idea. Have things changed since then?
- geff82 8y ago
  Berlin is the worst place if you want to have a good paying job. If you only want to work for startups, then Berlin is the place to go. But if you are open to work in Big Enterprise IT, then there are many places where you can work and earn very good salaries (especially Frankfurt, Munich, Hamburg where Enterprise IT usually pays between 80k$-140k$ depending on your role). While taxes and contributions for singles are quite high, it also includes health insurance, retirement money and unemployment insurance. For food, Germany is one of the cheapest places in the world. Property taxes are REALLY low compared to the US (I mean, in the US or in Germany, you as a renter pay them, so rent is also cheaper here, even in the hubs). In big cities, many people do not need a car as public transportation is very affordable and available everywhere (so that money gets saved for some). The biggest challenge: to stay here for longer, try to learn German well. It is not that difficult if you take your time.
  - shados 8y ago
    > 80k$-140k$ Thats the problem. You used the dollar symbol, but even if its euros, the upper range you gave is 160k. That's way, way too low for an upper range if someone's thinking of salaries on one of the US' coasts (especially west, but also east). Insurance is mostly for if you lose your job...as long as you have one, its a pretty tiny part of the paychecks, retirement matching is pretty common, food isn't that expense (I dunno about Germany, but compared to other countries Ive lived in, its cheap). After the difference in taxes, the delta in the upper range is a significant factor. Im curious about the property taxes part though. Do you have some examples? Real numbers are hard to google.
    - geff82 8y ago
      House worth 700k next to Frankfurt (the house I live in): 450 Euro a year. If you really count in the high rents on east and westcoast, I doubt there is high net difference of money to live from. If you are working as a freelancer, your tech income will also be rather in the 160-240k$ range (and quite stable nevertheless)
      - shados 8y ago
        > I doubt there is high net difference of money to live from In percentage? Probably not a big difference. In absolute numbers? OOoooh yeah. I can only speak from my personal experience, but my take home money after -all- expenses, including after feeding my retirement fund (basically what ends up in my savings and investment accounts unrelated to my retirement budget) is generally more than what a lot of people make as gross income in many other countries. There's no argument that the money comes at a high social inequality cost, but I wouldn't be able to get close to that anywhere else.
    - pastor_elm 8y ago
      If you want to make 600k as a software developer, stay in San Francisco, live in your 2.5 million dollar .2 acre ranch house, and enjoy walking over homeless people on your way to work.
      - shados 8y ago
        The last part is definitely the right point to make. To me there's no argument that taken in a vacuum, there is no country in the world where you'll be better off as a software developer than in one of the big tech centers in the US (not just SF, but NY, Boston, whatever. There's a bunch). But it comes at the cost of...well, everyone else.
outworlder 8y ago
Question: how big would the language barrier be? Not only at the workplace, but on mundane, day to day activities, for a family? When I was considering moving to Europe, I thought of Germany, but quickly dismissed, and then came to the conclusion that the Netherlands would be a better fit. But I'm not sure how accurate that assessment was.
- geff82 8y ago
  It totally depends. If you are working and living in one of the big centers like Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin or Hamburg, chances are good that you find work in a company that accepts English-only speakers and usually you can live day-to-day life in English, too. But of course I have to say that you should try to learn the language if you want to stay in Germany longer than just a year or two, as this will open up even more job opportunities (and potentially higher salaries). I personally work in a 100% English environment in Frankfurt (while being German myself). Working for smaller companies without working knowledge of German is difficult. German is not a dead language, so in smaller, non-international companies, people speak it all day long. On the other hand, the supply of talent is so tight that even smaller companies now adapt and accept non-German-speaking foreigners. In Berlin, you can certainly work and live a 100% English life. Then again, salaries are lower there as you compete with cheaper workers from Poland and other Eastern European countries.
  - outworlder 8y ago
    > But of course I have to say that you should try to learn the language if you want to stay in Germany longer than just a year or two Of course. But being able to at least perform basic functions while also adapting to a new country is important(and it is overwhelming already without language issues). After a while, you're doing yourself a disservice by not learning the local language. My aunt lived in Japan for close to two decades. She can't speak Japanese and knew barely enough to get by. She never really had to, as she's married to a native japanese, which doesn't help matters. But that's absolutely not the way to go.
    - geff82 8y ago

by geff82 8y ago

dunpeal 8y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, a friend of mine who looked into it, all he could get in Berlin was less than half his American salary, while his taxes were very substantially higher. His take-home would have been slashed by about 70%, so he gave up the idea. Have things changed since then?

geff82 8y ago
Berlin is the worst place if you want to have a good paying job. If you only want to work for startups, then Berlin is the place to go. But if you are open to work in Big Enterprise IT, then there are many places where you can work and earn very good salaries (especially Frankfurt, Munich, Hamburg where Enterprise IT usually pays between 80k$-140k$ depending on your role). While taxes and contributions for singles are quite high, it also includes health insurance, retirement money and unemployment insurance. For food, Germany is one of the cheapest places in the world. Property taxes are REALLY low compared to the US (I mean, in the US or in Germany, you as a renter pay them, so rent is also cheaper here, even in the hubs). In big cities, many people do not need a car as public transportation is very affordable and available everywhere (so that money gets saved for some). The biggest challenge: to stay here for longer, try to learn German well. It is not that difficult if you take your time.
- shados 8y ago
  > 80k$-140k$ Thats the problem. You used the dollar symbol, but even if its euros, the upper range you gave is 160k. That's way, way too low for an upper range if someone's thinking of salaries on one of the US' coasts (especially west, but also east). Insurance is mostly for if you lose your job...as long as you have one, its a pretty tiny part of the paychecks, retirement matching is pretty common, food isn't that expense (I dunno about Germany, but compared to other countries Ive lived in, its cheap). After the difference in taxes, the delta in the upper range is a significant factor. Im curious about the property taxes part though. Do you have some examples? Real numbers are hard to google.
  - geff82 8y ago
    House worth 700k next to Frankfurt (the house I live in): 450 Euro a year. If you really count in the high rents on east and westcoast, I doubt there is high net difference of money to live from. If you are working as a freelancer, your tech income will also be rather in the 160-240k$ range (and quite stable nevertheless)
    - shados 8y ago
      > I doubt there is high net difference of money to live from In percentage? Probably not a big difference. In absolute numbers? OOoooh yeah. I can only speak from my personal experience, but my take home money after -all- expenses, including after feeding my retirement fund (basically what ends up in my savings and investment accounts unrelated to my retirement budget) is generally more than what a lot of people make as gross income in many other countries. There's no argument that the money comes at a high social inequality cost, but I wouldn't be able to get close to that anywhere else.
  - pastor_elm 8y ago
    If you want to make 600k as a software developer, stay in San Francisco, live in your 2.5 million dollar .2 acre ranch house, and enjoy walking over homeless people on your way to work.
    - shados 8y ago
      The last part is definitely the right point to make. To me there's no argument that taken in a vacuum, there is no country in the world where you'll be better off as a software developer than in one of the big tech centers in the US (not just SF, but NY, Boston, whatever. There's a bunch). But it comes at the cost of...well, everyone else.

outworlder 8y ago

Question: how big would the language barrier be? Not only at the workplace, but on mundane, day to day activities, for a family? When I was considering moving to Europe, I thought of Germany, but quickly dismissed, and then came to the conclusion that the Netherlands would be a better fit. But I'm not sure how accurate that assessment was.

geff82 8y ago
It totally depends. If you are working and living in one of the big centers like Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin or Hamburg, chances are good that you find work in a company that accepts English-only speakers and usually you can live day-to-day life in English, too. But of course I have to say that you should try to learn the language if you want to stay in Germany longer than just a year or two, as this will open up even more job opportunities (and potentially higher salaries). I personally work in a 100% English environment in Frankfurt (while being German myself). Working for smaller companies without working knowledge of German is difficult. German is not a dead language, so in smaller, non-international companies, people speak it all day long. On the other hand, the supply of talent is so tight that even smaller companies now adapt and accept non-German-speaking foreigners. In Berlin, you can certainly work and live a 100% English life. Then again, salaries are lower there as you compete with cheaper workers from Poland and other Eastern European countries.
- outworlder 8y ago
  > But of course I have to say that you should try to learn the language if you want to stay in Germany longer than just a year or two Of course. But being able to at least perform basic functions while also adapting to a new country is important(and it is overwhelming already without language issues). After a while, you're doing yourself a disservice by not learning the local language. My aunt lived in Japan for close to two decades. She can't speak Japanese and knew barely enough to get by. She never really had to, as she's married to a native japanese, which doesn't help matters. But that's absolutely not the way to go.
  - geff82 8y ago