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I've posted this a number of times before but it's apparently not common knowledge (and for good reason Apple doesn't seem to talk about their situation in Chin

by IBM 8y ago

I've posted this a number of times before but it's apparently not common knowledge (and for good reason Apple doesn't seem to talk about their situation in China often). Apple's position in China is completely consistent with the rest of the world. In filings to a court during the FBI legal fight, Apple addressed this topic head on. The reason it was brought up in the first place was because national security establishment water holders were putting out the idea that Apple makes exceptions for China, and the Department of Justice parroted it [1]. From Apple's filing [2]: >Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that any pressure to hand over the same software to foreign agents “flows from [Apple’s] decision to do business in foreign countries . . . .” Opp. 26. Contrary to the government’s misleading statistics (Opp. 26), which had to do with lawful process and did not compel the creation of software that undermines the security of its users, Apple has never built a back door of any kind into iOS, or otherwise made data stored on the iPhone or in iCloud more technically accessible to any country’s government. See Dkt. 16-28 [Apple Inc., Privacy, Gov’t Info. Requests]; Federighi Decl. ¶¶ 6–7. The government is wrong in asserting that Apple made “special accommodations” for China (Opp. 26), as Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world and follows the same standards for responding to law enforcement requests. See Federighi Decl. ¶ 5. and a declaration from Craig Federighi personally [3]: >Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world. >Apple has never made user data, whether stored on the iPhone or in iCloud, more technologically accessible to any country's government. We believe any such access is too dangerous to allow. Apple has also not provided any government with its proprietary iOS source code. While governmental agencies in various countries, including the United States, perform regulatory reviews of new iPhone releases, all that Apple provides in those circumstances is an unmodified iPhone device. >It is my understanding that Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a "backdoor" in any of our products and services. >I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct. That was a few years ago, but Tim Cook basically reaffirmed that a few weeks ago in this interview with Vice [4]. The new law means Apple's Chinese iCloud data needs to be stored in local data centers, but Apple continues to maintain sole control of the keys. Whether you believe them or not, or whether you think that's a meaningful distinction is up to you. But end-to-end encrypted services like iMessage or iPhones itself, remain so and are still unblocked in China. You might be wondering why Apple seemingly gets an exception when services like WhatsApp are blocked. The answer should be obvious: Apple being an old-world company that still makes products in meat space, (indirectly) employs a lot of people in China. That gives them leverage that other companies don't have. So they have to comply with certain Chinese laws such as taking down the NYT app, VPN apps, being unable to operate iTunes Books or Movies in China, etc. But that's a small price if it means their core products remain uncompromised. [1] https://www.lawfareblog.com/deposing-tim-cook https://www.lawfareblog.com/deposing-tim-cook [2] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-16-Cm-00010-Dckt-000177-000-Filed-2016.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-1... [3] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-Decl-Executed.html#document/p1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-De... [4] https://youtu.be/VD1cP8SK3Q0?t=244 https://youtu.be/VD1cP8SK3Q0?t=244

kodablah 8y ago
> That was a few years ago, but Tim Cook basically reaffirmed that a few weeks ago in this interview with Vice At that time they were also storing iCloud data on their own servers, correct? To save myself and others from having to watch the Vice video, what did Tim Cook say that reaffirms no blanket Chinese government data access (honest, not sarcasm, I did not watch it)? Why are public statements about privacy always about the US or EU but never China? Surely the lack of consistency/transparency is clear here and causes mistrust. Be open and honest to your users you claim to care about and there's no problem. Just simple statements like "We have privacy concerns with [insert country here]" or "We aren't allowed to talk about privacy concerns with [insert country here]" or "We do not give blanket data to [insert country here]" or "Although we follow the rules, we disagree with [insert country here]", etc would go a long way. Or continue to be secretive and hidden and anti-user.
- IBM 8y ago
  Here's the exact time stamp so you can hear his answer yourself: https://youtu.be/VD1cP8SK3Q0?t=244 https://youtu.be/VD1cP8SK3Q0?t=244 >Why are public statements about privacy always about the US or EU but never China? As much as Apple/Cook may believe privacy is a human right, and have seemingly extracted some important concessions regarding their products, they aren't going to shoot themselves in the head so everyone can feel good about Apple publicly standing up to the CPC. That's a job for governments (the recent efforts by the Trump administration to reset the relationship with China is a good example).
  - kodablah 8y ago
    Had to watch with CC on, no audio for me atm. But he is saying the encryption is the same around the world and they own the keys. I'm afraid this doesn't allay fears of blanket data access. But a simple public statement on Apple's website like "we only provide icloud data on per user requests" or "we do not give the Chinese government large swaths of data". Or how about something as simple as "We disagree with the lack of privacy laws in China and the US and the [insert other country here]"? What does it say that you had to link to segment of a YouTube video of an HBO show for Apple's policies left open to interpretation? To me the lack of clarity is 100% indefensible and not worth twisting your personal ethics to do so. > so everyone can feel good about Apple publicly standing up [...]. That's a job for governments Only in some cases where it benefits them. In other cases, they absolutely stand up. It is blatantly obvious that their principles are based on borders and are inconsistent here.

by IBM 8y ago

kodablah 8y ago

> That was a few years ago, but Tim Cook basically reaffirmed that a few weeks ago in this interview with Vice At that time they were also storing iCloud data on their own servers, correct? To save myself and others from having to watch the Vice video, what did Tim Cook say that reaffirms no blanket Chinese government data access (honest, not sarcasm, I did not watch it)? Why are public statements about privacy always about the US or EU but never China? Surely the lack of consistency/transparency is clear here and causes mistrust. Be open and honest to your users you claim to care about and there's no problem. Just simple statements like "We have privacy concerns with [insert country here]" or "We aren't allowed to talk about privacy concerns with [insert country here]" or "We do not give blanket data to [insert country here]" or "Although we follow the rules, we disagree with [insert country here]", etc would go a long way. Or continue to be secretive and hidden and anti-user.

IBM 8y ago
Here's the exact time stamp so you can hear his answer yourself: https://youtu.be/VD1cP8SK3Q0?t=244 https://youtu.be/VD1cP8SK3Q0?t=244 >Why are public statements about privacy always about the US or EU but never China? As much as Apple/Cook may believe privacy is a human right, and have seemingly extracted some important concessions regarding their products, they aren't going to shoot themselves in the head so everyone can feel good about Apple publicly standing up to the CPC. That's a job for governments (the recent efforts by the Trump administration to reset the relationship with China is a good example).
- kodablah 8y ago
  Had to watch with CC on, no audio for me atm. But he is saying the encryption is the same around the world and they own the keys. I'm afraid this doesn't allay fears of blanket data access. But a simple public statement on Apple's website like "we only provide icloud data on per user requests" or "we do not give the Chinese government large swaths of data". Or how about something as simple as "We disagree with the lack of privacy laws in China and the US and the [insert other country here]"? What does it say that you had to link to segment of a YouTube video of an HBO show for Apple's policies left open to interpretation? To me the lack of clarity is 100% indefensible and not worth twisting your personal ethics to do so. > so everyone can feel good about Apple publicly standing up [...]. That's a job for governments Only in some cases where it benefits them. In other cases, they absolutely stand up. It is blatantly obvious that their principles are based on borders and are inconsistent here.