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No mainstream politician is pushing for completely open borders. That's a complete straw man. The closest quote I can find from a national politician calling f

No mainstream politician is pushing for completely open borders. That's a complete straw man. The closest quote I can find from a national politician calling for open borders is Donald Trump in 2013. "We will have to leave borders behind and go for global unity when it comes to financial stability."

deleted 8y ago
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lenkite 8y ago
AFAIK this is not a "complete straw man". Democratic National Committee deputy chair Keith Ellison (Minnesota) is strongly in favor of open borders, goes around wearing T-shirts saying the same. He has even been quoted saying that "America’s national borders create an injustice by keeping Mexican workers from traveling to the United States to look for higher-paying jobs". Maybe he has a point, however he does not share that opinion alone.
- learc83 8y ago
  >"America’s national borders create an injustice by keeping Mexican workers from traveling to the United States to look for higher-paying jobs" That's an inaccurate summary of what he said that's been going around right wing news sites. Here's what he actually said: > “And so corporations, certain people who get certain rights, can go back and forth across the border seeking out the lowest wages, but people, regular people, cannot go back and forth across the border seeking out the highest wages. So what it creates is an imbalance. It creates an injustice.” He isn't calling for open borders. In the context he was pointing out problems created by allowing corporations to move back and forth between borders to seek out the lowest wage employees, but not allowing employees to move back in forth to seek the highest wage employer. In the context of the interview, he was talking mostly about market protectionism to correct the employer side of that imbalance. With respect to the shirt he was wearing. It was band merch for an rap group. It's an inspirational quote empathizing with people crossing the border to improve their lives, not a literal call to remove border checkpoints. He may even prefer a world with open borders, but he's not saying we can or should actually implement that unilaterally. Again no one thinks Donald Trump wants open borders because he thinks one day we will have to "leave borders behind". His his actual immigration platform: "I believe immigration rules need to be straightforward, fair, and predictable. They currently are not. I am committed to passing comprehensive immigration reform and have co-sponsored such legislation in my two terms in Congress. I believe that our reformed immigration system should include a clear path to citizenship for those who are already in the U.S. working and paying taxes. We need to put families first and have an expedited process for family reunification and believe that the federal government has an obligation to clear up the lengthy backlog of family visa requests. I also believe we need to pass The Dream Act, which is legislation designed to increase access to higher education for the children of immigrants and give them an opportunity to succeed and give back to their communities." Notice nothing about open borders.
  - lenkite 8y ago
    I haven't observed this from right wing media, but from his own twitter channel. I don't understand this. Corporations are not allowed to move back and forth between borders at the drop of a hat- you have to satisfy legal obligations to be recognized as a corporation and hire people in any nation. Legal immigrants have also have to wait in a queue and satisfy formalities. The analogy just breaks down for illegal immigrants who are neither interested in following laws or awaiting their turn. So national borders are not creating any injustice. Please note that he wore that T-shirt at a "May-day" parade in a video published on his own twitter channel. It is rather "nice" of you to re-frame his stance that it was in support of a "Rap Group", but you and I both know that certainly wasn't the case.
    - learc83 8y ago
      You got text you quoted from right wing media. He never said the words you wrote, and if you google them, you'll find they only appear in right wing media. I'm not arguing for or against open borders. But I'm telling you Keith Ellison isn't arguing for what you think he is. >Legal immigrants have also have to wait in a queue and satisfy formalities. For 99% of the population there is no queue to wait in. >who are neither interested in following laws or awaiting their turn Again this is a right wing talking point. For the average person in Mexico, there is no turn. There isn't even a line to get in. >So national borders are not creating any injustice. You're arguing with a straw man. He never said that. He said that it's too easy for corporations to move between borders because of NAFTA (not frictionless, but too easy), and too hard for employees. That imbalance is what he's saying creates the injustice, not border security. >but you and I both know that certainly wasn't the case. I do know that it wasnt to support a rap group (also no need for scare quotes here--rap group is an accurate description.). I never said it was only or even partially to support the group itself. It was to show solidarity with a group of desperate poor people with an aspirational quote. You can believe and even advocate for a future world without borders as an aspirational goal, without believing that it's possible today or likely possible ever. Do you think Donald Trump's quote that we need to leave borders behind meant that he wants to just stop gaurding the border?
lowercased 8y ago
I think that just meant he was against tariffs and trade wars...

deleted 8y ago

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lenkite 8y ago

AFAIK this is not a "complete straw man". Democratic National Committee deputy chair Keith Ellison (Minnesota) is strongly in favor of open borders, goes around wearing T-shirts saying the same. He has even been quoted saying that "America’s national borders create an injustice by keeping Mexican workers from traveling to the United States to look for higher-paying jobs". Maybe he has a point, however he does not share that opinion alone.

learc83 8y ago
>"America’s national borders create an injustice by keeping Mexican workers from traveling to the United States to look for higher-paying jobs" That's an inaccurate summary of what he said that's been going around right wing news sites. Here's what he actually said: > “And so corporations, certain people who get certain rights, can go back and forth across the border seeking out the lowest wages, but people, regular people, cannot go back and forth across the border seeking out the highest wages. So what it creates is an imbalance. It creates an injustice.” He isn't calling for open borders. In the context he was pointing out problems created by allowing corporations to move back and forth between borders to seek out the lowest wage employees, but not allowing employees to move back in forth to seek the highest wage employer. In the context of the interview, he was talking mostly about market protectionism to correct the employer side of that imbalance. With respect to the shirt he was wearing. It was band merch for an rap group. It's an inspirational quote empathizing with people crossing the border to improve their lives, not a literal call to remove border checkpoints. He may even prefer a world with open borders, but he's not saying we can or should actually implement that unilaterally. Again no one thinks Donald Trump wants open borders because he thinks one day we will have to "leave borders behind". His his actual immigration platform: "I believe immigration rules need to be straightforward, fair, and predictable. They currently are not. I am committed to passing comprehensive immigration reform and have co-sponsored such legislation in my two terms in Congress. I believe that our reformed immigration system should include a clear path to citizenship for those who are already in the U.S. working and paying taxes. We need to put families first and have an expedited process for family reunification and believe that the federal government has an obligation to clear up the lengthy backlog of family visa requests. I also believe we need to pass The Dream Act, which is legislation designed to increase access to higher education for the children of immigrants and give them an opportunity to succeed and give back to their communities." Notice nothing about open borders.
- lenkite 8y ago
  I haven't observed this from right wing media, but from his own twitter channel. I don't understand this. Corporations are not allowed to move back and forth between borders at the drop of a hat- you have to satisfy legal obligations to be recognized as a corporation and hire people in any nation. Legal immigrants have also have to wait in a queue and satisfy formalities. The analogy just breaks down for illegal immigrants who are neither interested in following laws or awaiting their turn. So national borders are not creating any injustice. Please note that he wore that T-shirt at a "May-day" parade in a video published on his own twitter channel. It is rather "nice" of you to re-frame his stance that it was in support of a "Rap Group", but you and I both know that certainly wasn't the case.
  - learc83 8y ago
    You got text you quoted from right wing media. He never said the words you wrote, and if you google them, you'll find they only appear in right wing media. I'm not arguing for or against open borders. But I'm telling you Keith Ellison isn't arguing for what you think he is. >Legal immigrants have also have to wait in a queue and satisfy formalities. For 99% of the population there is no queue to wait in. >who are neither interested in following laws or awaiting their turn Again this is a right wing talking point. For the average person in Mexico, there is no turn. There isn't even a line to get in. >So national borders are not creating any injustice. You're arguing with a straw man. He never said that. He said that it's too easy for corporations to move between borders because of NAFTA (not frictionless, but too easy), and too hard for employees. That imbalance is what he's saying creates the injustice, not border security. >but you and I both know that certainly wasn't the case. I do know that it wasnt to support a rap group (also no need for scare quotes here--rap group is an accurate description.). I never said it was only or even partially to support the group itself. It was to show solidarity with a group of desperate poor people with an aspirational quote. You can believe and even advocate for a future world without borders as an aspirational goal, without believing that it's possible today or likely possible ever. Do you think Donald Trump's quote that we need to leave borders behind meant that he wants to just stop gaurding the border?

lowercased 8y ago

I think that just meant he was against tariffs and trade wars...