5 ms·

I think making company think twice before offering the "update" is kind of the point. There is two parts to consider I think: - iOS updates are not reversible

by hrktb 8y ago

I think making company think twice before offering the "update" is kind of the point. There is two parts to consider I think: - iOS updates are not reversible (technically it can be done, but for lambda users it's a lost cause). - Apple is very aggressive towards making users upgrade, nagging indefinitely if there is any available newer version So, users are very aggressively pushed towards the newer version, can't go back, but their phone becomes less useable, for new features they might not care about. As it is now, not offering the major update to old phones will be a grace in a number of cases. It would still be nice if users wanting to upgrade can have a path forward, understanding the trade-offs. But users should be less complaining if their device keeps working basically the same way as when they bought it years ago.

Nullabillity 8y ago
Also don't forget their SDKs' lack of compatibility in either direction.
- FigBug 8y ago
  What do you mean by this?
Fnoord 8y ago
Not just that, often the new update is the only way to stay secure, at the cost of new interface/software/etc. Backporting security and reliability updates is all I expect; not new interface/software/etc. I didn't pay for these. I don't feel entitled to receive those to keep my device functioning. The precedent is neither scary nor controversial. The European law says a device should keep functioning for a reasonable amount of time. A car completely breaking apart after 25 months is not normal. A smartphone being insecure is not normal either. Especially not considering how much personal data these contain.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  The European law also states that general warranty of consumer electronics is 24 months. No court would rule that someone should support a device such as phone longer, the precedent (the law + previous rulings regarding consumer electronics all around EU) is too strong.
  - the_clarence 8y ago
    No. Its not about supporting. Its about not forcing us to update their os if its going to fuck their phones
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      I'm reacting to a comment that said a device should be secure, that implies support. Nothing about not forcing an update, quite the contrary actually, with the implication that vendors should have to spend additional time to patch old OS versions.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    The European law states that a device should work according to its life expectancy. It'd ridiculous to assume a device you paid several hundred EUR for would only function properly for 24 months (I paid about 600 EUR for a SGS3 back in the days, and got about a year of support; ridiculous and my last Samsung smartphone). It'd also be counterproductive to any e-waste reduction efforts.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      However ridiculous, there is absolutely no way to convince any EU court to rule that a company should be responsible for a product after 24 months if there is no SLA or other factors; you're citing one law as if it exists isolated - it doesn't. On top of that, I'm reacting to a comment that said a device should be "secure", not "functional" - a huge difference. My car costs multiple tens of thousands of euro and yet it's still only 24 months (people actually tried this one at a court, failed). If you bought your Samsung phone in the EU, you will get the 24 month warranty automatically from all EU-native suppliers. Of course if you ship it from somewhere else like the US or Asia, it's very different. If it's from EU, send it in as non-functional. There are many things that are counter-productive in the EU, this one is probably one of the smallest ones.
- justinclift 8y ago
  Removal of 32-bit support on iOS was like that. I'd bought an iPad pro just a few months before, and suddenly I couldn't use apps I require (no updates available). Instead of downgrading to the new-and-busted-iOS version I just sold the friggin iPad (not "fit for purpose") and went back to my ancient iPad (original model). Doesn't get used for browsing the net obviously, but at least that model still works.
krrrh 8y ago
> But users should be less complaining if their device keeps working basically the same way as when they bought it years ago. But devices can never work the same as when they were purchased for two reasons. 1) Running an older OS with the originally shipped apps means that you are exposed to widely known exploits which weren't known when the device was purchased. You may counter that we could mandate security updates for older OSs for x years, but this raises all sorts of practical issues determining what bugs are serious enough for backports, and what effect fixing a security issue has on performance. 2) Third parties don't all have the resources or incentives to support older OSs, and app compatibility or usability is just as likely to drive people to upgrade as a slightly slower phone. This would be a big problem for smaller dev shops, and Apple largely solves it through its smooth but overbearing upgrade process, but even large and successful companies want to minimize the costs of supporting older OSs. MS Office apps for instance require iOS 11 and up. So your phone used to run an older version of Word ok, but 3 years after not upgrading the OS, it no longer does, or it is no longer compatible with MSs upgraded cloud services, or you restore but MS has stopped making a compatible version available on the App Store due to technical and security debt. What sort of regulatory apparatus is going to adjudicate these issues, and wouldn't uncertainty around it place shackles on innovation? Regardless, the relatively small fines levied are already behind the curve, and market forces have already pushed Apple to addressing the issue. iOS 12 had a large focus on speeding up older devices, and my soon-to-be 6 year old iPhone 5S seems to run nearly as well as it ever has. Lisa Jackson had a prominent spot during the last keynote declaring that Apple was focusing on increasing device longevity [1] . OS updates are the key to this. [1] http://www.asymco.com/2018/09/13/lasts-longer/ http://www.asymco.com/2018/09/13/lasts-longer/
saurik 8y ago
> iOS updates are not reversible (technically it can be done, but for lambda users it's a lost cause). I want to be clear that this is a lost cause for effectively everyone: I'm saurik, and, even with access to people like geohot and iH8Sn0w, if you give me a phone that is running a later version of the operating system and ask to downgrade, I'm going to say you need to lobby your congressperson to force Apple to allow that... the only thing that even sort of works is if you had a buggy version of the firmware to start with and did some prep work you can sometimes manage to get a downgrade to work if the firmware you upgrade to (or the bootloader itself) is also buggy... it isn't like it is "just really hard to do because it requires manual labor": it is only possible due to mistakes in Apple's attempts to make sure it can't be done.
- Applethief 8y ago
  > I'm saurik As in Jay Freeman? If so, love yor work dude!

by hrktb 8y ago

Nullabillity 8y ago

Also don't forget their SDKs' lack of compatibility in either direction.

FigBug 8y ago
What do you mean by this?

Fnoord 8y ago

Not just that, often the new update is the only way to stay secure, at the cost of new interface/software/etc. Backporting security and reliability updates is all I expect; not new interface/software/etc. I didn't pay for these. I don't feel entitled to receive those to keep my device functioning. The precedent is neither scary nor controversial. The European law says a device should keep functioning for a reasonable amount of time. A car completely breaking apart after 25 months is not normal. A smartphone being insecure is not normal either. Especially not considering how much personal data these contain.

TomMarius 8y ago
The European law also states that general warranty of consumer electronics is 24 months. No court would rule that someone should support a device such as phone longer, the precedent (the law + previous rulings regarding consumer electronics all around EU) is too strong.
- the_clarence 8y ago
  No. Its not about supporting. Its about not forcing us to update their os if its going to fuck their phones
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    I'm reacting to a comment that said a device should be secure, that implies support. Nothing about not forcing an update, quite the contrary actually, with the implication that vendors should have to spend additional time to patch old OS versions.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  The European law states that a device should work according to its life expectancy. It'd ridiculous to assume a device you paid several hundred EUR for would only function properly for 24 months (I paid about 600 EUR for a SGS3 back in the days, and got about a year of support; ridiculous and my last Samsung smartphone). It'd also be counterproductive to any e-waste reduction efforts.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    However ridiculous, there is absolutely no way to convince any EU court to rule that a company should be responsible for a product after 24 months if there is no SLA or other factors; you're citing one law as if it exists isolated - it doesn't. On top of that, I'm reacting to a comment that said a device should be "secure", not "functional" - a huge difference. My car costs multiple tens of thousands of euro and yet it's still only 24 months (people actually tried this one at a court, failed). If you bought your Samsung phone in the EU, you will get the 24 month warranty automatically from all EU-native suppliers. Of course if you ship it from somewhere else like the US or Asia, it's very different. If it's from EU, send it in as non-functional. There are many things that are counter-productive in the EU, this one is probably one of the smallest ones.
justinclift 8y ago
Removal of 32-bit support on iOS was like that. I'd bought an iPad pro just a few months before, and suddenly I couldn't use apps I require (no updates available). Instead of downgrading to the new-and-busted-iOS version I just sold the friggin iPad (not "fit for purpose") and went back to my ancient iPad (original model). Doesn't get used for browsing the net obviously, but at least that model still works.

krrrh 8y ago

> But users should be less complaining if their device keeps working basically the same way as when they bought it years ago. But devices can never work the same as when they were purchased for two reasons. 1) Running an older OS with the originally shipped apps means that you are exposed to widely known exploits which weren't known when the device was purchased. You may counter that we could mandate security updates for older OSs for x years, but this raises all sorts of practical issues determining what bugs are serious enough for backports, and what effect fixing a security issue has on performance. 2) Third parties don't all have the resources or incentives to support older OSs, and app compatibility or usability is just as likely to drive people to upgrade as a slightly slower phone. This would be a big problem for smaller dev shops, and Apple largely solves it through its smooth but overbearing upgrade process, but even large and successful companies want to minimize the costs of supporting older OSs. MS Office apps for instance require iOS 11 and up. So your phone used to run an older version of Word ok, but 3 years after not upgrading the OS, it no longer does, or it is no longer compatible with MSs upgraded cloud services, or you restore but MS has stopped making a compatible version available on the App Store due to technical and security debt. What sort of regulatory apparatus is going to adjudicate these issues, and wouldn't uncertainty around it place shackles on innovation? Regardless, the relatively small fines levied are already behind the curve, and market forces have already pushed Apple to addressing the issue. iOS 12 had a large focus on speeding up older devices, and my soon-to-be 6 year old iPhone 5S seems to run nearly as well as it ever has. Lisa Jackson had a prominent spot during the last keynote declaring that Apple was focusing on increasing device longevity [1] . OS updates are the key to this. [1] http://www.asymco.com/2018/09/13/lasts-longer/ http://www.asymco.com/2018/09/13/lasts-longer/

saurik 8y ago

> iOS updates are not reversible (technically it can be done, but for lambda users it's a lost cause). I want to be clear that this is a lost cause for effectively everyone: I'm saurik, and, even with access to people like geohot and iH8Sn0w, if you give me a phone that is running a later version of the operating system and ask to downgrade, I'm going to say you need to lobby your congressperson to force Apple to allow that... the only thing that even sort of works is if you had a buggy version of the firmware to start with and did some prep work you can sometimes manage to get a downgrade to work if the firmware you upgrade to (or the bootloader itself) is also buggy... it isn't like it is "just really hard to do because it requires manual labor": it is only possible due to mistakes in Apple's attempts to make sure it can't be done.

Applethief 8y ago
> I'm saurik As in Jay Freeman? If so, love yor work dude!