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What can I say? Does a smartphone make me a hypocrite? You make an extremely valid point, though. What I would actually like (and what seems really hard to fin

What can I say? Does a smartphone make me a hypocrite? You make an extremely valid point, though. What I would actually like (and what seems really hard to find) is a dumb phone with a 4G hotspot and which does not run Android in any way, shape or form. Any suggestions

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
To each his own, I guess, but is the exchange of a little bit convenience to a potential privacy nuclear device really worth it? Does a smartphone make me a hypocrite? To me, it does. Not to pick on you personally, but 99% of the people freaking out about the Echo own smartphones and carry them around all the time. For the convenience. It makes no sense, unless you realize that the person has just drawn their arbitrary convenience-privacy tradeoff line differently than the Echo owners have.
- 908087 8y ago
  Smartphones generally don't contain multiple directional microphones that give them the ability to pick individual voices out in a noisy room. They also don't have the advantage of being plugged directly into a wall 24/7, and so any audio surveillance being done would have to take battery life into account, as well as put consideration into the possibility of the device heating up and tipping the surveillance target off that something strange was going on. Further, despite being generally pretty locked down to the average consumer, smartphones are far less of a black box than the echo/home/etc. Both are a concern, but technically skilled users are at least able to take steps to reduce the potential for their phones to spy on them. The only way to reduce any spying potential with the echo/home/etc, is not to have one at all.
  - shard 8y ago
    iPhones have had 4 mics since the 6s, and that is enough to do some beam forming and target individual voices. Phones with 3 mics such as Pixel phones, iPhones starting with 5, and various phones from other manufacturers, can have some basic beam forming capabilities for picking out voices.
- tjoff 8y ago
  There are no real alternatives to a smartphone (this is paramount). Not living with a smartphone is a real social handicap on many levels. You also still have some control over it (compared to an Echo). An Echo is just the tiniest subset of a smartphone but with some serious privacy risks, all of a very minuscule benefit in convenience. A gimmick most would probably say, the killer app to this day seems to be a kitchen timer. To compare that with a smartphone where tons of every day things can be quite inconvenient without one. I get your point and on principle I agree. But the line most definitely isn't arbitrary set (even if you do find some practical use for an Echo). The difference is astronomical. That's not to say the current state of affair is depressing and we ought to really try to improve it.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    I think it depends on the attitude. If you say that the relatively low utility of an Echo means it’s not worth the potential downsides, that’s perfectly reasonable. If you say that people who buy an Echo are insane for willingly putting a spy device in their house, that’s hypocritical and irrational if you have a smartphone. I think there’s a useful discussion to have in the former case, but alas most of the conversation involves the latter.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Not hypocritical at all - phones would burn out charge in an hour if they were listening all the time. And anyway the listening feature of a phone is incidental, and they can be useful with it turned off. Echo's only feature is listening and reporting. Its a different device in kind
      - mikeash 8y ago
        Phones last several hours when actively doing real-time voice communication. The power draw for passive surveillance would be way lower. Many phones support constant background listening with wake-word activation just like the Echo, with minuscule impact on battery life. If your phone has a spying feature, are you sure it can be turned off? How do you know?
mastax 8y ago
Nokia 3310 4G
testvox 8y ago
I'm waiting for https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
dfxm12 8y ago
Does a smartphone make me a hypocrite? That's for you to decide, I think. In terms of privacy, we decide what we're willing to give up. The usefulness of an Echo may be worth sometimes seeing ads for chicken soup to some. Some might even think of it as a feature! If you don't want to know online advertisers to know when you're sick, you're going to be more mindful of just your cell phone and any nearby Echos. Don't have your friends tag you in posts on social media asking how you're doing (this one is completely out of your control), don't search for drug stores or which medicine you need to combat your symptoms, etc. I get the point is to limit your profile as much as possible, but this case seems unreasonably high on the effort to payoff ratio.
bwood 8y ago
This is pretty much what you're asking for: https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-8110-4g https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-8110-4g It runs KaiOS, which is a fork of Firefox OS IIRC. It's basically a dumb phone, but with some critical "smart" features like wifi hotspot, contacts/calendar sync, etc. It was a breath of fresh air for me.
- Loughla 8y ago
  Holy shit thank you for that link. I've been looking for something like that.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  Plus you can look like you are in the Matrix
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Wow! Just, thank you!
- abawany 8y ago
  This is an intriguing choice that I have kept an eye on for a while. However, the source is mostly open-source with some partner bits closed source [1]. Still a great choice, particularly since it has tethering available. Edit: Review link: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/16/nokia-8110-4g-review-nostalgia-the-matrix-banana-phone https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/16/nokia-811... https://support.kaiostech.com/support/solutions/articles/35000078432-can-i-access-the-source-code- https://support.kaiostech.com/support/solutions/articles/350...
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    I ordered one today. Apart from the fact that it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for it's also reasonably cheap at ~90$.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago

To each his own, I guess, but is the exchange of a little bit convenience to a potential privacy nuclear device really worth it? Does a smartphone make me a hypocrite? To me, it does. Not to pick on you personally, but 99% of the people freaking out about the Echo own smartphones and carry them around all the time. For the convenience. It makes no sense, unless you realize that the person has just drawn their arbitrary convenience-privacy tradeoff line differently than the Echo owners have.

908087 8y ago
Smartphones generally don't contain multiple directional microphones that give them the ability to pick individual voices out in a noisy room. They also don't have the advantage of being plugged directly into a wall 24/7, and so any audio surveillance being done would have to take battery life into account, as well as put consideration into the possibility of the device heating up and tipping the surveillance target off that something strange was going on. Further, despite being generally pretty locked down to the average consumer, smartphones are far less of a black box than the echo/home/etc. Both are a concern, but technically skilled users are at least able to take steps to reduce the potential for their phones to spy on them. The only way to reduce any spying potential with the echo/home/etc, is not to have one at all.
- shard 8y ago
  iPhones have had 4 mics since the 6s, and that is enough to do some beam forming and target individual voices. Phones with 3 mics such as Pixel phones, iPhones starting with 5, and various phones from other manufacturers, can have some basic beam forming capabilities for picking out voices.
tjoff 8y ago
There are no real alternatives to a smartphone (this is paramount). Not living with a smartphone is a real social handicap on many levels. You also still have some control over it (compared to an Echo). An Echo is just the tiniest subset of a smartphone but with some serious privacy risks, all of a very minuscule benefit in convenience. A gimmick most would probably say, the killer app to this day seems to be a kitchen timer. To compare that with a smartphone where tons of every day things can be quite inconvenient without one. I get your point and on principle I agree. But the line most definitely isn't arbitrary set (even if you do find some practical use for an Echo). The difference is astronomical. That's not to say the current state of affair is depressing and we ought to really try to improve it.
- mikeash 8y ago
  I think it depends on the attitude. If you say that the relatively low utility of an Echo means it’s not worth the potential downsides, that’s perfectly reasonable. If you say that people who buy an Echo are insane for willingly putting a spy device in their house, that’s hypocritical and irrational if you have a smartphone. I think there’s a useful discussion to have in the former case, but alas most of the conversation involves the latter.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Not hypocritical at all - phones would burn out charge in an hour if they were listening all the time. And anyway the listening feature of a phone is incidental, and they can be useful with it turned off. Echo's only feature is listening and reporting. Its a different device in kind
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Phones last several hours when actively doing real-time voice communication. The power draw for passive surveillance would be way lower. Many phones support constant background listening with wake-word activation just like the Echo, with minuscule impact on battery life. If your phone has a spying feature, are you sure it can be turned off? How do you know?

mastax 8y ago

Nokia 3310 4G

testvox 8y ago

I'm waiting for https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

dfxm12 8y ago

Does a smartphone make me a hypocrite? That's for you to decide, I think. In terms of privacy, we decide what we're willing to give up. The usefulness of an Echo may be worth sometimes seeing ads for chicken soup to some. Some might even think of it as a feature! If you don't want to know online advertisers to know when you're sick, you're going to be more mindful of just your cell phone and any nearby Echos. Don't have your friends tag you in posts on social media asking how you're doing (this one is completely out of your control), don't search for drug stores or which medicine you need to combat your symptoms, etc. I get the point is to limit your profile as much as possible, but this case seems unreasonably high on the effort to payoff ratio.

bwood 8y ago

This is pretty much what you're asking for: https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-8110-4g https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-8110-4g It runs KaiOS, which is a fork of Firefox OS IIRC. It's basically a dumb phone, but with some critical "smart" features like wifi hotspot, contacts/calendar sync, etc. It was a breath of fresh air for me.

Loughla 8y ago
Holy shit thank you for that link. I've been looking for something like that.
dwighttk 8y ago
Plus you can look like you are in the Matrix
CaptainZapp 8y ago
Wow! Just, thank you!
abawany 8y ago
This is an intriguing choice that I have kept an eye on for a while. However, the source is mostly open-source with some partner bits closed source [1]. Still a great choice, particularly since it has tethering available. Edit: Review link: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/16/nokia-8110-4g-review-nostalgia-the-matrix-banana-phone https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/16/nokia-811... https://support.kaiostech.com/support/solutions/articles/35000078432-can-i-access-the-source-code- https://support.kaiostech.com/support/solutions/articles/350...
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  I ordered one today. Apart from the fact that it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for it's also reasonably cheap at ~90$.