6 ms·

What it comes down to, as with all things like this, is control; we'll acknowledge you non-binary folks, but we'll choose the language we use to describe you.

by Frondo 8y ago

What it comes down to, as with all things like this, is control; we'll acknowledge you non-binary folks, but we'll choose the language we use to describe you. letting them pic their own preferred pronoun is too uncomfortable, it means really giving them a seat at the table. everything else is just rationalization.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Neat how that last line dismisses any further discussion. Its not trolling when trying to shut down discussion; is there another term for such activity?
- Frondo 8y ago
  I meant that deferring to "it's bad grammar" or "we have other words to choose for them" is a rationalization. The real answer is, "we don't want to fully acknowledge their humanity, so we'll retain grip over this one tiny meaningless thing, to remind them that we're in charge". Saying it's grammar and you can't use bad grammar is a rationalization -- grammar's also an entirely invented thing and it changes over time and if it changes now because we're all getting on board with NB folks existing, then that's just one of a million grammar changes in the 2010s. Saying we have other words and they should be happy we're using other words is just a rationalization -- it's their call to make and we can either let them own that or we can keep insisting NB folks don't get that self-determination. "Neat," right???
  - jakelazaroff 8y ago
    You may want to add an addendum to your original comment; until I read this I misinterpreted it as actually arguing for not recognizing their humanity, and I'd imagine you're getting downvoted for the same reason.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Its all about trying to get everybody to do what is PC (sorry I don't know any other word). And blaming them when they resist organizing their own mind and behavior around somebody else's issues. Blaming folks for not falling in line with a very tiny point is unreasonable. Arguing around it with moralizing and appeals to guilt is manipulative. That a neat summary in my opinion.
    - Frondo 8y ago
      "Let people choose their own words to describe themselves." How is that PC? How is that not common courtesy??
      - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        "organizing their own mind and behavior around somebody else's issues." Its very personal. Compound this with, the words seem silly and contrived. How about you address me as "Mr. Oingy Boingy" from now on. To get a flavor of the emotional content of language. Just as an example; choose your own. Let me be more helpful and less obtuse. Language is an emotional issue, so yes folks become pedantic and argumentative. That route (arguing) is unlikely to get a favorable response. What will work then? Empathizing, suggesting ways to help folks who are sensitive and understand their point of view. Things like that. I understand the frustration that comes with failure to convince, particularly when its a point that seem obvious and simple. I apologize for vectoring off with unhelpful comments about trolling. I'll try to understand the issue better in future. See? That was easy and didn't cost me anything. I'll take my own advice more in future.
      - yepguy 8y ago
        It's special treatment rather than common courtesy. I don't get to choose the pronouns that other people refer to me by, and neither does anyone else I know. I would only be offended by someone misgendering me if it were clearly meant as an insult. If someone sincerely believes that people cannot choose their own gender, then it's not very clear to me that misgendering a trans person is disrespectful, rather than an honest indication of differing views on a single social issue.
        CocaKoala 8y ago
        > I don't get to choose the pronouns that other people refer to me by, and neither does anyone else I know. Why not? People do similar things all the time. If I introduced my friend Richard to you and he said "Please, call me Rich", would you say "Sorry buddy, no can do; Richard is your name, and that's what I have to call you"? Why are pronouns so special compared to names?

by Frondo 8y ago

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

Neat how that last line dismisses any further discussion. Its not trolling when trying to shut down discussion; is there another term for such activity?

Frondo 8y ago
I meant that deferring to "it's bad grammar" or "we have other words to choose for them" is a rationalization. The real answer is, "we don't want to fully acknowledge their humanity, so we'll retain grip over this one tiny meaningless thing, to remind them that we're in charge". Saying it's grammar and you can't use bad grammar is a rationalization -- grammar's also an entirely invented thing and it changes over time and if it changes now because we're all getting on board with NB folks existing, then that's just one of a million grammar changes in the 2010s. Saying we have other words and they should be happy we're using other words is just a rationalization -- it's their call to make and we can either let them own that or we can keep insisting NB folks don't get that self-determination. "Neat," right???
- jakelazaroff 8y ago
  You may want to add an addendum to your original comment; until I read this I misinterpreted it as actually arguing for not recognizing their humanity, and I'd imagine you're getting downvoted for the same reason.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Its all about trying to get everybody to do what is PC (sorry I don't know any other word). And blaming them when they resist organizing their own mind and behavior around somebody else's issues. Blaming folks for not falling in line with a very tiny point is unreasonable. Arguing around it with moralizing and appeals to guilt is manipulative. That a neat summary in my opinion.
  - Frondo 8y ago
    "Let people choose their own words to describe themselves." How is that PC? How is that not common courtesy??
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      "organizing their own mind and behavior around somebody else's issues." Its very personal. Compound this with, the words seem silly and contrived. How about you address me as "Mr. Oingy Boingy" from now on. To get a flavor of the emotional content of language. Just as an example; choose your own. Let me be more helpful and less obtuse. Language is an emotional issue, so yes folks become pedantic and argumentative. That route (arguing) is unlikely to get a favorable response. What will work then? Empathizing, suggesting ways to help folks who are sensitive and understand their point of view. Things like that. I understand the frustration that comes with failure to convince, particularly when its a point that seem obvious and simple. I apologize for vectoring off with unhelpful comments about trolling. I'll try to understand the issue better in future. See? That was easy and didn't cost me anything. I'll take my own advice more in future.
    - yepguy 8y ago
      It's special treatment rather than common courtesy. I don't get to choose the pronouns that other people refer to me by, and neither does anyone else I know. I would only be offended by someone misgendering me if it were clearly meant as an insult. If someone sincerely believes that people cannot choose their own gender, then it's not very clear to me that misgendering a trans person is disrespectful, rather than an honest indication of differing views on a single social issue.
      - CocaKoala 8y ago
        > I don't get to choose the pronouns that other people refer to me by, and neither does anyone else I know. Why not? People do similar things all the time. If I introduced my friend Richard to you and he said "Please, call me Rich", would you say "Sorry buddy, no can do; Richard is your name, and that's what I have to call you"? Why are pronouns so special compared to names?