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Thermometer Tells Your Temperature, Then Tells Firms Where to Advertise
- 908087 8y agoIt's always best to assume that any device billed as "smart" is actually intended as an advertising surveillance tool.
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y agoTo be fair, it's not always intended that way, but sooner or later someone discovers the additional monetizing potential.
- ryandrake 8y agoI think we should evaluate people and companies by the results of their actions, not by their intentions.
- superflyguy 8y agoAmusing that the story about unwanted side effects of information unwittingly exfiltrated contains numerous identical requests for me to disable my "ad blocker".
- peacetreefrog 8y agoAgree. It's the same with anything, when push comes to shove and it means getting by or laying off writers etc the NY Times is going to fall back on basically the same behavior these cough drop or chicken noodle soup or whatever co's are using this health data: targeted advertising, whether that's displaying ads on its site or advertising elsewhere to try and get subscribers.
- jatsign 8y ago"Amazon has submitted a patent application, recently granted, outlining how the company could recommend chicken soup or cough drops to people who use its Echo device if it detects symptoms like coughing and sniffling when they speak to it, according to a report by CNET. It could even suggest a visit to the movies after discerning boredom. Other patents submitted by the company have focused on how it could suggest products to people based on keywords in their conversations." Really glad I don't own one of these things. I don't know if Brave New World or 1984 was right. Looks like the future decided to split the difference.
- CaptainZapp 8y agoWhat beggars believe is that in the novel, 1984, you didn't have a choice if you want a televisor in your home, or not. But people put an always on spy device connected to Amazon (or Google, or Facebook [honest, we won't spy on you, maybe]) into their homes. To each his own, I guess, but is the exchange of a little bit convenience to a potential privacy nuclear device really worth it?
- arethuza 8y agoWasn't it just party members who had telescreens? Most people (i.e the proles) posed no threat to the Inner Party and therefore weren't monitored that closely.
- CaptainZapp 8y agoYou may be right. It's over 30 years since I read it. Seems to be a good idea to reread it, though.
- fidndifj 8y agoThe proles were less monitored, but there were telescreens hidden everywhere in the city just in case. Besides why have telescreens, when children ratting out their parents are the most effective soln.? That’s what scares me the most of the next twenty years.
- 8y ago
- jbob2000 8y ago> The data showed Clorox which ZIP codes around the country had increases in fevers. No, all it did was show you wealthy areas where people buy stupid crap. These are really stupid devices. I have the thermometer in my hand when I take the reading, I can just glance at it to see the reading, why do I need it to sync to my phone?
- 908087 8y agoSo that the manufacturer can extract additional money from your pocket by proxy after selling access to you to their "partners". "Log in with facebook to see your temperature" I wonder if there's a "share temperature on Facebook" button in the app?
- mschuster91 8y ago> I have the thermometer in my hand when I take the reading, I can just glance at it to see the reading, why do I need it to sync to my phone? For persons with an uterus, reading a thermometer can be used both for getting pregnant (=have sex on the day where a slight increase in vaginal temperature indicates that an egg is released) and for preventing pregnancies... and the latter case is where the phone sync comes in handy. The pregnancy-prevention apps work by profiling the dates and volumes of periods, plus sex drive, plus temperature, to determine a window in which unprotected sex is risky (IIRC, it's seven days prior to egg cell release + 1 or 2 days after).
- 908087 8y agoSyncing data to your phone doesn't require sending that data to a third party.
- gray_-_wolf 8y agoThat would be a nice world to live in you describe here...
- kevin_thibedeau 8y agoWho doesn't need a REST API to convert units?
- code4tee 8y agoFor me the key is transparency of collection and use (which some will quickly point out is very GDPR-like). I’m OK to anonymously share my car’s position and speed of in return I get live traffic data from others doing the same. I’m less cool about people collecting my data without me knowing (or burying it deep in unreadable T&Cs) and then selling that for uses that I’m not aware of or didn’t approve. When you visit a free website or use a free service I get the “your the product” mantra, but for products I buy and put in my home... no.
- kodablah 8y ago> (which some will quickly point out is very GDPR-like) I hope not. Knowing what data is collected and when is rarely argued against by anyone. Requiring the ability to provide it, provide services without it, large penalty maximums, explicit opt-in requirement, vagueness, non-enforceability, etc (etc, etc, etc) are often what people complain about wrt overreach.
- redbeard0x0a 8y ago> Large Penalty Maximums This is needed, otherwise there is no real reason to actually protect personal data. Equifax losing the personal data for 50% of Americans should have resulted in major penalties due to the nature of their security. The other requirements raise the cost of storing this data closer to the damage that can be done by the loss/theft of that data (from the perspective of the data subject).
- jatsign 8y agoMakes me wonder if we need the government to: - Require companies to register before collecting personally identifying information (what, why, from whom, etc). - Specify how & when privacy policies are distributed. - Audit companies to ensure they adhere to their own privacy policies.
- yellow_postit 8y agoI have long wanted to see a standardized data privacy table like food nutrition information on the side of most packaged food in the US.
- elvinyung 8y agoTo sum up something I've been thinking about: the panoptic dystopia of our future is evidently not Orwellian, but Molochian (shameless self-promotion: [1]). We aren't forced to install telescreens in our homes; we live within social and psychological incentive structures that subtly nudge us toward willingly having and using them. The network effects enmesh us all within the stickest of webs. [1] https://www.notion.so/The-Bottom-Up-Surveillance-State-8ea9a6e019e14ef7ae4f3ef0ffb35984 https://www.notion.so/The-Bottom-Up-Surveillance-State-8ea9a...
- jatsign 8y agoThis is both well written and well formatted. Is it a blog? If so, what tech are you using to render it? Are there more pieces like this?
- elvinyung 8y agoThanks! It's kind of a blog [1] that mostly consists of me writing down various things that I think about, that I try to format in a presentable way. I write everything in a notes app called Notion, and it happens to provide zero-effort publishing in a relatively nice way (although a semi-major pain point for me is that it doesn't really provide nice features for the reader, e.g. RSS subscription, or public comments). [1] https://www.notion.so/eff0rtfu11-39e0544567de4a1887b2614e84ceb0ab https://www.notion.so/eff0rtfu11-39e0544567de4a1887b2614e84c... (I've also added a link to the bottom of that post.)
- briandear 8y agoA “new version of notion is ready” pop up that can’t be dismissed without clicking “update” makes your link unreadable. I have no idea what Notion is or why a website would need me to click “update” on a pop-up.
- elvinyung 8y agoInteresting, it doesn't show up for me. Mind posting a screenshot? I'll pass it onto them.
- Fnoord 8y agoThe irony is that people pay for such a device. They should get paid instead.
- oh_hello 8y agoThis use of data seems reasonable if the company is truly following the constraints described. The way I read it fever rates were sold to advertisers with zip code granularity. Advertisers could then target markets, but not individuals. It doesn't sound like users would experience creepy invasions of privacy like "I took my temperature and then every website I visited had a NyQuil ad." Instead, there would generally be more ads in one city versus another.
- kop316 8y agoIt would be interesting to read their privacy policy, and then note if it has something like: "We reserve the right to change the terms of this agreement at any time and only have to provide you notice." That way, before the product is big, they can make those claims, but as soon as it has an entrenched niche, they can do the privacy bait and switch and collect all they want.
- quux 8y agoLooks like they can do exactly that: By using this Site or Application, you consent to the use of information that you provide to us in accordance with this Privacy Policy. We do update this Privacy Policy from time to time so please review this Privacy Policy regularly. If we materially alter our Privacy Policy, we will notify you of such changes by contacting you through your user account or by posting a notice on our Site or in the Application. Your continued use of the Site or Application will be deemed your agreement that your information may be used in accordance with the new policy. If you do not agree with the changes, then you should stop using the Site or Application, and you should notify us that you do not want your information used in accordance with the changes. https://www.kinsahealth.com/privacy https://www.kinsahealth.com/privacy
- kop316 8y ago"If you do not agree with the changes, then you should stop using the Site or Application, and you should notify us that you do not want your information used in accordance with the changes." I interpret that to mean "If you don't like what we are doing now, your device is a brick, too bad." I wonder if there is a legal way to fight back at that.
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoThis just throws gasoline on a raging inferno... But here in Indiana, I can legally walk into election central and ask for the voter registration of everybody in the county. The data contains: Full legal name, address, phone#, email, and Drivers license OR last 4 of SSN. This would be a breach notification anywhere else. https://www.reddit.com/r/bloomington/comments/9qqvmz/tilin_indiana_anybody_can_obtain_voter/ https://www.reddit.com/r/bloomington/comments/9qqvmz/tilin_i... Edit: seriously, why the downvotes? We're talking about a legal breach that leaks PII if you choose to exert your right to vote. Buying listening posts is voluntary. Voting shouldn't leak your PII.
- fybe 8y agoI think you are being down voted for not being relevant to the article. Feels more like you are starting a fire next to another one rather than talking about the currently one ablaze. (To expand on your analogy)
- Kaveren 8y agoI think the downvotes are because people might consider this off topic. Though, realistically the damage has already been done. It no longer matters if your SSN is stolen. A very sizable percentage of adults above a certain age already have this data purchasable for $10 a pop. A credit freeze is your best option against identity theft. I think we need to rethink SSNs being used in the way they are today. They were never designed to be your national identity number. We can do better.
- AstralStorm 8y agoSo, when will this data be sold to your insurance company so that you pay a premium?
- creeble 8y agoAmazon patents lots of impractical things. Don't read too much into them.
- a3n 8y ago> Kinsa sells its data to other companies under the name Kinsa Insights. While Mr. Singh declined to share the names of other customers, citing confidentiality agreements, ... The irony.
- dmix 8y agoThey (claim) they don't sell the names of their Thermostat users either, it's all anonymized data. Where's the irony? > It has promoted the usefulness of its “illness data,” which it says is aggregated and contains no identifying personal information before being passed along to other companies.
- a3n 8y ago> One model of Kinsa’s thermometer plugs straight into phones, while another child-friendly version looks like Elmo from “Sesame Street.” Elmo, a close relative of Joe Camel. > The company said that most app users opt to share their location and that Kinsa does not link the information to phone numbers or email addresses. For now. The'll either do it later, or they'll be acquired by BigCo, or if they simply fold then that data will be an asset to sell during liquidation.
- 40acres 8y agoI'll admit I'd be very interested in a data broker system that would capture my data and sell it to interested parties that I then can profit on. The amount of data each person generates grows and grows per year, even a small dollar amount would be beneficial I think.
- berkes 8y agoThere are several such products being built in the 'crypto' space. Civic intends to allow you to benefit from selling PII for authorization. Datawallet something similar. BAT intends to let you make money by looking at ads (or, to be paid for the data you hand over to advertisers). There are much more following this model of paying for data. Whether one or more will succeed, wether they need blockchains and cryptocurrencies: the future will tell.
- soared 8y agoSomething interesting is that the more money you have, the more you're worth to advertisers, and the more money you could earn from your data. But the data you least want to share (I have disease X, I was just in a car accident, etc) would by far be the most valuable.
- jdowner 8y agoSo, would it be illegal to buy a large number of these thermometers and put them in a water bath at 105 degrees?
- a3n 8y agoThe "jammers" vibe resonates with me, but practically, they'd all need to be associated with a phone with the app installed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner
- ams6110 8y agoNo, just watch the network -- I would bet $100 that the traffic is not secure. Once you figure out the protocol, write a little python script to send it random temperatures and locations.
- a3n 8y agoLemme guess, more affluent neighborhoods will have more illness spikes.
- apexalpha 8y agoAfter GDPR our next move needs to be a advertising category whitelist. I say the EU makes a list of categories that you are allowed to categorize users in: - Age (only year, no month or day this is not relevant). - Sex - City or geographic area with at least 500,000 people. - 5 items selected from a list of hobbies / preferences.. etc. Companies should simply not be _allowed_ to target people based on categories like being ill, being poor, being terminal, being depressed etc... And here's the kicker: if every company is held to these same standards no one company has a disadvantage. Well, except the entire ads industry scene which is now set in anarchy.
- FlyingLawnmower 8y agoI like the sentiment, but unfortunately predefining a set of categories doesn't prevent the issues. Even without access to a specific attribute like "wealth" or "race", the learning algorithms used here can still be used to target poor people, minorities, etc. by leveraging correlations within the dataset. Without these features, the bias just gets dispersed through other correlated variables, and makes it harder to detect that an algorithm is disproportionately targeting poor people. Additionally, even a modest list of attributes can be sufficient to uniquely identify someone. I think limiting collection is a good thing in general, but to meet your stated goals, we unfortunately have to do more.
- dwighttk 8y ago"Companies should simply not be _allowed_ to target people based on categories like..." But what if they just use good enough proxies for those categories? e.g. "X% of people who chose these 3 hobbies have a household income of..." you are just making it so they can't leave a paper trail that points to them saying some words along those lines. They can still come up with the theory in their head and test it and end up saying "we don't target people based on household income, we just advertise to people who chose these three hobbies."
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mancerayder 8y agoThere's a fantastic little blurb about Tim Cook arguing in favor of privacy regulations: “Today that trade has exploded into a data industrial complex. Our own information, from the everyday to the deeply personal, is being weaponized against us with military efficiency,” he said. “These scraps of data ... each one harmless enough on its own ... are carefully assembled, synthesized, traded, and sold.” He said algorithms, a major tool for competitors, were turning harmless preferences into hardened convictions. “If green is your favorite color, you may find yourself reading a lot of articles — or watching a lot of videos — about the insidious threat from people who like orange,” Cook said.[1] I love this, almost to the point that I want to move off of the EvilCorp Pixel 2 and onto something that doesn't resell my personal data. It seems Apple is on a higher moral high ground. 1 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-privacy-apple/apple-boss-takes-aim-at-weaponization-of-customer-data-idUSKCN1MY1DF https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-privacy-apple/apple-bo...
- superflyguy 8y agoUnless you're going to also stop using Tweedledum corp's browser and search, I'd not bother. And if you are then just use, say, Firefox and duckduckgo and ublock origin on your current os.
- mancerayder 8y agoI use Firefox and DDG on my EvilCorp Pixel. I suspect there's a lot more than that - for example, it seems widely accepted that it funnels GPS data out even if you're not using a GPS-dependent app like GMaps in the foreground.
- joncrane 8y agoMeanwhile another post on the front page says that Apple has been fined for intentionally slowing down their phones.
- mancerayder 8y agoIs that related to re-selling personal, intimate data (like where you are and what you like) to third parties? If not, why mention it in the context of privacy? I'm not an Apple user and I don't even think the iPhone UI is particularly great (no . and ? keys on the keyboard? No notification drop-down I can quickly, in one-stop-shop fashion, remove notifications without that silly number on the icon remaining?). But we're talking about privacy.
- atemerev 8y agoIf the data is properly anonymized, it is actually a good idea. Could also work for public health programs optimization / disease prevention.
- camelCaseOfBeer 8y agoIf you're downloading an app to use something like a thermometer, you're inviting advertisers into your business and this shouldn't offend anybody. What problem does a,"smart thermometer" solve that an abled-adult's memory does not? Is installing an app and setting up an account more convenient than using a pen? "Gee golly, I sure wish there was a gadget that'd help me remember three numbers so I could approximate a pattern!" Said nobody.
- blang 8y agoI'm failing to see the value add of this device.
- mountainofdeath 8y agoI will leave this here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ. It's comical and frightening when reality imitates art.
- gdrift 8y agoThis makes me sick. Now I need to take my temperature. I can't wait for the toilette paper that transmits my poop analysis in real time directly to the good and helpful corporation. For my own good. Who wouldn't want such close attention to their well being. And it would only cost 10x more and will be mandated for insurance eligibility.
- jackvalentine 8y agoThis might be the first device I've purchased that has betrayed me in a way I didn't expect. I don't use a Kinsa thermometer anymore having discovered the hardware was crap anyway and moved on to a Withings one, but I did not realise, despite probably agreeing to it in the T&Cs, that they were selling my data. I naively had assumed me paying for the thermometer was the business model. I must say it doesn't feel good.