11 ms·

Former CIA Chief of Disguise Explains How Spies Use Disguises [video]

197 points by miiiiiike 8y ago

Kaveren 8y ago
I wonder how good the disguise "technology" is that they won't disclose in a public YouTube video. I don't know why you'd want to disguise yourself as the opposite gender unless you could pull off the voice, your cover would be blown almost immediately. I still don't place any stock in intelligence operatives working in embassies, I can only imagine it works because intelligence agencies aren't sophisticated enough yet. You have a (relatively) small group of staff, and you know a portion of them are spies. Many "official covers" are extremely weak.
- nkrisc 8y ago
  > I don't know why you'd want to disguise yourself as the opposite gender unless you could pull off the voice, your cover would be blown almost immediately. Only if you speak. The solution then, if this were for some reason necessary, is "don't speak."
  - Kaveren 8y ago
    Relying on not having to speak is extremely sub-optimal. I'm not sure how many situations you can get in that you have both the time required as well as the need to disguise yourself as someone of the opposite gender. You could pretend to be mute, of course, but this can attract more attention in certain scenarios.
  - exelius 8y ago
    You can train your voice to speak convincingly like a female. Transgender women do this all the time. The training does not take that long (a few months) and would be good for disguising your voice in a number of ways, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they did this.
    - collyw 8y ago
      In my limited experience they aren't that convincing.
      - superflyguy 8y ago
        I'm probably missing something here but how are you confident that you're not failing to identify the ones who are convincing?
        smhost 8y ago
        a semi-related question, can people with training in music recognize the difference between a sopranist and a soprano? because as a layperson i really can't.
        gowld 8y ago
        It doesn't matter if a few are good at convincing, as long as most are unconvincing. Unless the people who are good at voice conversion are the same people who have done body shape modification aand wardrobe modification and are opposite the people who openly admit about their transness, it's easy to estimate what fraction of trans people are good at changing their voice.
        superflyguy 8y ago
        Well this conversation was about spies and I doubt it is very important what percentage of trainee spies eventually pass.
        collyw 8y ago
        I used to work at a place where there were a lot of transgender prostitutes outside in the evenings. They would proposition me as I walked by (as well as flash their parts at me sometimes). Some were pretty convincing regarding looks but when they spoke you could tell. (I said "limited experience", but I suppose I probably have a fair bit more experience than most people).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bfuller 8y ago
  Silicone prosthetics are nearly perfect disguises. And if you pull off a female illusion well, youd be surprised that most people wouldnt think twice about your voice.
  - carlmr 8y ago
    I agree, a lot of it is about the complete package, how you walk, how you stand, which emotions you show overtly, how you dress. There are plenty of women with very deep voices and you still accept them as women. You just don't notice because you don't hear the voice in isolation.
  - leephillips 8y ago
    The speaker in the video claims that they can turn a woman into a man but that it's nearly impossible to turn a man into a woman. In other words, according to her, there is no way to "pull off a female illusion well".
    - ataturk 8y ago
      Joan of Arc.
    - bfuller 8y ago
      Nearly impossible, sure. But not impossible. There are professional female illusionists you can look up to see the amount of preparation and effort it takes to pull off.
  - samstave 8y ago
    Wouldnt it be trivial to use heat detection laser thermometers to determine that a facial prosthetic is being used. Or simply thermal imaging.
- matty_makes 8y ago
  The hosting country, like Russia, knows they are spies and puts surveillance teams on them 24/7. The spy's (aka CIA Officer) job is to make sure their agents (the host country people they are gathering intelligence from) will not be discovered because in worst case that may mean death for the agent. I've read a few memoirs from CIA officers and typically they are doing a very well planned surveillance detection route (SDR) to ferret out who is following them. If they are headed to a clandestine meet, the plan could include disguises and specific parts of the route where they can lose the surveillance team. Then they can meet freely with their agent. The sophistication isn't about technology of disguise, it is more about using a combination of the techniques described in the video and well honed skills.
  - Kaveren 8y ago
    I am just saying, if I am an asset, I do not want to be handled by someone under official cover. I'm sure they take all manner of measures to stay safe, but imagine how much safer it could be when you don't know the handler is in a group of a few hundred suspected spies. I'm sure that's more difficult though. By "technology" I meant quality of the masks if they even bother with them. It seems silicone masks are very good. I wonder if surveillance cameras are able to tell if a person is wearing one.
    - rl3 8y ago
      >It seems silicone masks are very good. I wonder if surveillance cameras are able to tell if a person is wearing one. One would think IR imaging would bust masks pretty quick due to differences in thermal characteristics from normal skin.
- Theodores 8y ago
  They didn't reveal my secret disguise so I do wonder. My 'secret disguise' is truly ingenious. I am a cyclist and I can transform into a regular pedestrian without anyone being suspicious. In 'cyclist mode' the trick is to wear an extremely hi-viz jacket and to cycle at an unexceptional speed, taking short cuts through parks and along canal tow-paths. Those pesky Americans in their cars with access to every CCTV will never catch me that way. I can stop at any time and just get off the road, maybe to 'have a drink' or maybe to change my outfit as I could be 'too hot or cold'. The helmet, sunglasses and face mask makes it hard for facial recognition to work, yet I am not 'in disguise' as per the flaky accessories shown in this video. Of course I have a fleet of bicycles, including a folding bike that can be taken on public transport as well as wheeled into buildings. This and other bikes in the fleet can be abandoned as needed. It goes without saying that if I do encounter trouble then that D-lock and accompanying chain is there if I need it. I would prefer not to be nicked for grievous bodily harm so I am more likely to step up the pace and take flight rather than fight. Again, due to the special nature of being a 'cyclist' I can jump every light with impunity whereas those men in black can't quite do that. I can also have a full change of clothes in my bag, again this is legit due to the bicycle. I don't even need to leave fingerprints. Plus a tracking device is quite hard to place on a bicycle without the added weight being noticed. What is also pretty good is that the bicycle gets me to places in time. There are no traffic delays or train problems. The tools that go with the bike are pretty good too. I can carry all that is needed to break and enter into a building if that was needed (which it isn't). Anyone else carrying a knife or an adjustable wrench has some explaining to do if they get stopped and searched. The bag on my back also does a good job of stopping small arms from damaging my vital organs, not that getting shot is a problem outside the U.S. and occupied territories. It all comes with plausible deniability. I can navigate by landmarks too. Even better this 'stealth cycling' mode of getting around is not worthy of Hollywood. Some guy bumbling along cycle paths is way too boring for the movies so my secret disguise is always going to work.
  - ataturk 8y ago
    I've lived 45 years in the US, getting shot has never been an issue because I don't sell illegal drugs.
- clubm8 8y ago
  >* I wonder how good the disguise "technology" is that they won't disclose in a public YouTube video.* The impression I got of government tech from the Snowden leaks was "script kiddies at scale". I don't think their technology is "better" but they may have unique abilities by virtue of access to large databases such as DMV/passport photo DBs. Or they can do things like get a court order compelling $COMPANY to pipe any publicly posted profile photo to them with the reasoning it was publicly posted and thus has no expectation of privacy. Other things at scale like that.
docker_up 8y ago
With Facebook and facial recognition, spies can be identified before they even know they want to become a spy. There is literally a lifetime of facial recognition data on social networks for youths and college grads as they post their pics online, and if they get recruited to become a spy in their 20s, there will already be enough information to identify people globally, as they walk through airports, shopping centers, etc and have their pictures videoed constantly. Facebook, et. al is a treasure trove of data for purposes like these.
- jonathantm 8y ago
  signal v noise ma dude.
- matty_makes 8y ago
  The video describes mostly about what they would do under active surveillance e.g. people following them. Some of the prosthetics she describes also may throw off facial recognition.
- cm2187 8y ago
  I would assume that in front of the headquarter of any major intelligence agency, there is a dozen minivans, one for each foreign agency, taking continuously recording+facial recognition of employees coming in an out. Useful to spot foreign agents when they come through your airports security.
  - qaq 8y ago
    One would imagine SAD/SOG types are not exactly walking in through front door there are prob protocols in place for this type of things.
    - qaq 8y ago
      Unless we are talking about something like Russian GRU than they will basically list GRU building as their registered address in various open and semi open databases.
jonathantm 8y ago
Aaaargo!
- dang 8y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?
  - modzu 8y ago
    why does hn censor humor? that censorship is creating a feedback loop where creative individuals are left out of the discussions, which seem to be becoming more and more pedantic. his post, while perfunctory, is still a reference to something culturally significant imo flagging would be better reserved for more severe infractions and let the community decide (via vote) what is "substantive"
    - lobotryas 8y ago
      This isn't censorship (dang just made a request). Creative people and everyone is welcome; you just have to follow the rules. If you're really after puns and low effort posts then check out reddit, but even there some communities (like legaladvice or science) will "censor" a user for such posts.
      - clubm8 8y ago
        Which specific HN rule bans humor?
carlmr 8y ago
I'm wondering now when all these classic behaviors become imprinted. I'm born in America, grew up in Germany for the most part. Apparently I eat and stand like an American.
- akuji1993 8y ago
  Probably you watching your parents eat?
  - collyw 8y ago
    A lot of mannerisms appear to be inherited / learned from parents. Just look about some family gathering.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      My son's girlfriend acts and talks just like her mother. I was surprised to learn she was adopted!
      - collyw 8y ago
        Learned makes a bit more sense. I would be surprised if that sort of thing is genetic.
- fossuser 8y ago
  Another interesting one people don't notice is counting money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ I saw this video and didn't think much of it until I saw my friend counting money the Asian way. He didn't know that wasn't how Americans typically did it - I guess you pick up a lot of little things like this by watching your parents.
  - miluge 8y ago
    I felt the same when moving to Romania, they have a different way of counting money compared to France. I barely paid attention to it until one of the ladies from shop told me. Cultural difference is found in a lot of small things you do in your daily life, it's just like that scene from Inglourious Bastards when he is showing the German 3 and the British 3.
bantersaurus 8y ago
That guy at the end who changes into a vest is lols
golergka 8y ago
Watching this video makes Bellingcat Skripal poisoining investigations even more hillarious.

197 points by miiiiiike 8y ago

I wonder how good the disguise "technology" is that they won't disclose in a public YouTube video. I don't know why you'd want to disguise yourself as the opposite gender unless you could pull off the voice, your cover would be blown almost immediately. I still don't place any stock in intelligence operatives working in embassies, I can only imagine it works because intelligence agencies aren't sophisticated enough yet. You have a (relatively) small group of staff, and you know a portion of them are spies. Many "official covers" are extremely weak.

nkrisc 8y ago
> I don't know why you'd want to disguise yourself as the opposite gender unless you could pull off the voice, your cover would be blown almost immediately. Only if you speak. The solution then, if this were for some reason necessary, is "don't speak."
- Kaveren 8y ago
  Relying on not having to speak is extremely sub-optimal. I'm not sure how many situations you can get in that you have both the time required as well as the need to disguise yourself as someone of the opposite gender. You could pretend to be mute, of course, but this can attract more attention in certain scenarios.
- exelius 8y ago
  You can train your voice to speak convincingly like a female. Transgender women do this all the time. The training does not take that long (a few months) and would be good for disguising your voice in a number of ways, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they did this.
  - collyw 8y ago
    In my limited experience they aren't that convincing.
    - superflyguy 8y ago
      I'm probably missing something here but how are you confident that you're not failing to identify the ones who are convincing?
      - smhost 8y ago
        a semi-related question, can people with training in music recognize the difference between a sopranist and a soprano? because as a layperson i really can't.
      - gowld 8y ago
        It doesn't matter if a few are good at convincing, as long as most are unconvincing. Unless the people who are good at voice conversion are the same people who have done body shape modification aand wardrobe modification and are opposite the people who openly admit about their transness, it's easy to estimate what fraction of trans people are good at changing their voice.
        superflyguy 8y ago
        Well this conversation was about spies and I doubt it is very important what percentage of trainee spies eventually pass.
      - collyw 8y ago
        I used to work at a place where there were a lot of transgender prostitutes outside in the evenings. They would proposition me as I walked by (as well as flash their parts at me sometimes). Some were pretty convincing regarding looks but when they spoke you could tell. (I said "limited experience", but I suppose I probably have a fair bit more experience than most people).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bfuller 8y ago
Silicone prosthetics are nearly perfect disguises. And if you pull off a female illusion well, youd be surprised that most people wouldnt think twice about your voice.
- carlmr 8y ago
  I agree, a lot of it is about the complete package, how you walk, how you stand, which emotions you show overtly, how you dress. There are plenty of women with very deep voices and you still accept them as women. You just don't notice because you don't hear the voice in isolation.
- leephillips 8y ago
  The speaker in the video claims that they can turn a woman into a man but that it's nearly impossible to turn a man into a woman. In other words, according to her, there is no way to "pull off a female illusion well".
  - ataturk 8y ago
    Joan of Arc.
  - bfuller 8y ago
    Nearly impossible, sure. But not impossible. There are professional female illusionists you can look up to see the amount of preparation and effort it takes to pull off.
- samstave 8y ago
  Wouldnt it be trivial to use heat detection laser thermometers to determine that a facial prosthetic is being used. Or simply thermal imaging.
matty_makes 8y ago
The hosting country, like Russia, knows they are spies and puts surveillance teams on them 24/7. The spy's (aka CIA Officer) job is to make sure their agents (the host country people they are gathering intelligence from) will not be discovered because in worst case that may mean death for the agent. I've read a few memoirs from CIA officers and typically they are doing a very well planned surveillance detection route (SDR) to ferret out who is following them. If they are headed to a clandestine meet, the plan could include disguises and specific parts of the route where they can lose the surveillance team. Then they can meet freely with their agent. The sophistication isn't about technology of disguise, it is more about using a combination of the techniques described in the video and well honed skills.
- Kaveren 8y ago
  I am just saying, if I am an asset, I do not want to be handled by someone under official cover. I'm sure they take all manner of measures to stay safe, but imagine how much safer it could be when you don't know the handler is in a group of a few hundred suspected spies. I'm sure that's more difficult though. By "technology" I meant quality of the masks if they even bother with them. It seems silicone masks are very good. I wonder if surveillance cameras are able to tell if a person is wearing one.
  - rl3 8y ago
    >It seems silicone masks are very good. I wonder if surveillance cameras are able to tell if a person is wearing one. One would think IR imaging would bust masks pretty quick due to differences in thermal characteristics from normal skin.
Theodores 8y ago
They didn't reveal my secret disguise so I do wonder. My 'secret disguise' is truly ingenious. I am a cyclist and I can transform into a regular pedestrian without anyone being suspicious. In 'cyclist mode' the trick is to wear an extremely hi-viz jacket and to cycle at an unexceptional speed, taking short cuts through parks and along canal tow-paths. Those pesky Americans in their cars with access to every CCTV will never catch me that way. I can stop at any time and just get off the road, maybe to 'have a drink' or maybe to change my outfit as I could be 'too hot or cold'. The helmet, sunglasses and face mask makes it hard for facial recognition to work, yet I am not 'in disguise' as per the flaky accessories shown in this video. Of course I have a fleet of bicycles, including a folding bike that can be taken on public transport as well as wheeled into buildings. This and other bikes in the fleet can be abandoned as needed. It goes without saying that if I do encounter trouble then that D-lock and accompanying chain is there if I need it. I would prefer not to be nicked for grievous bodily harm so I am more likely to step up the pace and take flight rather than fight. Again, due to the special nature of being a 'cyclist' I can jump every light with impunity whereas those men in black can't quite do that. I can also have a full change of clothes in my bag, again this is legit due to the bicycle. I don't even need to leave fingerprints. Plus a tracking device is quite hard to place on a bicycle without the added weight being noticed. What is also pretty good is that the bicycle gets me to places in time. There are no traffic delays or train problems. The tools that go with the bike are pretty good too. I can carry all that is needed to break and enter into a building if that was needed (which it isn't). Anyone else carrying a knife or an adjustable wrench has some explaining to do if they get stopped and searched. The bag on my back also does a good job of stopping small arms from damaging my vital organs, not that getting shot is a problem outside the U.S. and occupied territories. It all comes with plausible deniability. I can navigate by landmarks too. Even better this 'stealth cycling' mode of getting around is not worthy of Hollywood. Some guy bumbling along cycle paths is way too boring for the movies so my secret disguise is always going to work.
- ataturk 8y ago
  I've lived 45 years in the US, getting shot has never been an issue because I don't sell illegal drugs.
clubm8 8y ago
>* I wonder how good the disguise "technology" is that they won't disclose in a public YouTube video.* The impression I got of government tech from the Snowden leaks was "script kiddies at scale". I don't think their technology is "better" but they may have unique abilities by virtue of access to large databases such as DMV/passport photo DBs. Or they can do things like get a court order compelling $COMPANY to pipe any publicly posted profile photo to them with the reasoning it was publicly posted and thus has no expectation of privacy. Other things at scale like that.

docker_up 8y ago

With Facebook and facial recognition, spies can be identified before they even know they want to become a spy. There is literally a lifetime of facial recognition data on social networks for youths and college grads as they post their pics online, and if they get recruited to become a spy in their 20s, there will already be enough information to identify people globally, as they walk through airports, shopping centers, etc and have their pictures videoed constantly. Facebook, et. al is a treasure trove of data for purposes like these.

jonathantm 8y ago
signal v noise ma dude.
matty_makes 8y ago
The video describes mostly about what they would do under active surveillance e.g. people following them. Some of the prosthetics she describes also may throw off facial recognition.
cm2187 8y ago
I would assume that in front of the headquarter of any major intelligence agency, there is a dozen minivans, one for each foreign agency, taking continuously recording+facial recognition of employees coming in an out. Useful to spot foreign agents when they come through your airports security.
- qaq 8y ago
  One would imagine SAD/SOG types are not exactly walking in through front door there are prob protocols in place for this type of things.
  - qaq 8y ago
    Unless we are talking about something like Russian GRU than they will basically list GRU building as their registered address in various open and semi open databases.

jonathantm 8y ago

Aaaargo!

dang 8y ago
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?
- modzu 8y ago
  why does hn censor humor? that censorship is creating a feedback loop where creative individuals are left out of the discussions, which seem to be becoming more and more pedantic. his post, while perfunctory, is still a reference to something culturally significant imo flagging would be better reserved for more severe infractions and let the community decide (via vote) what is "substantive"
  - lobotryas 8y ago
    This isn't censorship (dang just made a request). Creative people and everyone is welcome; you just have to follow the rules. If you're really after puns and low effort posts then check out reddit, but even there some communities (like legaladvice or science) will "censor" a user for such posts.
    - clubm8 8y ago
      Which specific HN rule bans humor?

carlmr 8y ago

I'm wondering now when all these classic behaviors become imprinted. I'm born in America, grew up in Germany for the most part. Apparently I eat and stand like an American.

akuji1993 8y ago
Probably you watching your parents eat?
- collyw 8y ago
  A lot of mannerisms appear to be inherited / learned from parents. Just look about some family gathering.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    My son's girlfriend acts and talks just like her mother. I was surprised to learn she was adopted!
    - collyw 8y ago
      Learned makes a bit more sense. I would be surprised if that sort of thing is genetic.
fossuser 8y ago
Another interesting one people don't notice is counting money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ I saw this video and didn't think much of it until I saw my friend counting money the Asian way. He didn't know that wasn't how Americans typically did it - I guess you pick up a lot of little things like this by watching your parents.
- miluge 8y ago
  I felt the same when moving to Romania, they have a different way of counting money compared to France. I barely paid attention to it until one of the ladies from shop told me. Cultural difference is found in a lot of small things you do in your daily life, it's just like that scene from Inglourious Bastards when he is showing the German 3 and the British 3.

bantersaurus 8y ago

That guy at the end who changes into a vest is lols

golergka 8y ago

Watching this video makes Bellingcat Skripal poisoining investigations even more hillarious.