5 ms·

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

poulsbohemian 8y ago
Even here on the left coast, I find it surprising how many people are unwilling to admit their atheism, out of some sense of social threat. I was talking to someone from the UK last week who I thought put it really well - what's happening in the US right now is the final throes of a generation who desperately wants to return to their mental image of the past, unwilling to see their own racist, xenophobic, self-absorbsion. I throw religion in that same bucket, as they've (by which I mean the baby boomers) have convinced themselves that association with Christianity == good / holy / right / just / White / American, making it challenging to move forward socially / politically. Bet in 2020 we'll continue to hear the same trope as every other election that sure, we let that black guy get elected, maybe a woman could get reelected, but there's no way we'll let some atheist get elected.
- foobarbazetc 8y ago
  The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious (though the black church is scary or something), but Trump is obviously an atheist. Yet they’re treated exactly the opposite by the evangelicals. It’s a bit of a mindfuck until you realize it’s not really about religion at all.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    You nailed it.
  - leonroy 8y ago
    > The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious I really did not get that impression at all from his book Dreams From My Father. A quick Google suggests that both his father and mother were atheists at points in their life. I do know that Obama did attend church more often as he started to move into politics.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > but Trump is obviously an atheist. I doubt this: he rather either believes that he is personally chosen by God or God himself. :-)
    - thawkins 8y ago
      There is only one god that trump worships, himself.
      - krapp 8y ago
        The difference between God and Donald Trump is that God doesn't believe he is Donald Trump.
  - beatgammit 8y ago
    > Trump is obviously an atheist Huh, I didn't realize Presbyterians were atheist...
- stephenr 8y ago
  > left coast I take it you never look south.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    I'm not the one who coined the phrase, but I used it here deliberately because of the connotations regarding the demographics of the western US coast: politically and socially progressive, as well as historically reporting lower rates of church membership.
paulgrant999 8y ago
atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position. in reality, its just another religion. true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix. I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can. The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and officialdom recognise "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE. For decades half of those ticking CofE or any of the non-conformist options were a vote for atheism. There's no box, tick what my family grandparents would have. If I had to summarise UK views, most simply don't seem to care, or see the point of a supernatural being, a god, or some ancient human rules that restrict what you can eat or if you may control your reproduction. If you need tobacco or some deity to get through life have at it. Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most.
  - paulgrant999 8y ago
    yeah its different here in the US. :) Everything is more polarized/political. Everything. > Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. I discuss theology on a fairly regular basis ;) and philosophy. ;) lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on. Same old shit (hate/misanthropy), just wrapped in new cloth. > "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE Just leave it blank. What to your mind, is the purpose of having an explicit box? I'm curious. > Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most. Eh. I know Buddhist philosophy well. Few people get it. My friend who is an atheist (in the truest sense) is a humanist. So am I. Thats why we're friends. :) But he respects my choice to follow a religion; same as I respect his choice, to follow none.
qubax 8y ago
> and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything. If you are from the UK, what could you possibly know about the US? I'm atheist and have been since 12 or so. My parents are christian. Never had any issues like you described in my entire life. Stop believing exaggerated nonsense from for-profit companies like the new yorker as truths. It's more clickbait fiction than anything. Sure the US may be more religious than other countries. But there are plenty of atheists and agnostics and every other religion and non-religions around. And people get along fine. Frankly, my perception of the UK ( which I've never visited but I've read about so that makes an exper ) is that the atheists in the UK are far more zealous and militant than the religious in the US. But I'm guessing I know as much about the UK as you do about the US.
- codeulike 8y ago
  I feel like I know a bit about the USA because about 70% of the internet and social media is taken up with discussions of your politics and society. But yes I might have overreached a bit. I'm glad to hear that your (un)religious opinion hasn't affected your life, but I'm thinking specifically about the political arena: The fact that Bernie Sanders has to deny being an atheist, and that Zuckerberg has to suddenly pretend to be religious because he has political ambitions. Things like that just dont happen over here. No-one is particularly interested in the religion or lack thereof of politicians, and it really doesn't get discussed much. (edit: Northern Ireland is a very complicated exception to this) Perhaps quoting Chomsky here isn't a great idea but according to him, the United States is a very fundamentalist, religious country – one of the most extreme in the world. https://chomsky.info/01312016/ https://chomsky.info/01312016/ re: Zealous Atheists in the UK - well we did produce Dawkins but generally atheists over here dont have much to complain about because we are a genuinely secular society. People like Dawkins tend to turn their attention to other countries. And because we're secular, most people don't really have to spend much time thinking what they 'are' at all, in that sense.
- cannonedhamster 8y ago
  I've lived in the US for my entire life, I've live in both the north and south. Traveled large portions of the country. I've also traveled internationally numerous times. To say that Atheists in the US are hated is putting it mildly. There have been research studies into it, and the results were Atheists were one of the most distrusted groups in America and rated lower than Muslims and actual rapists. You can look up the Pew study, The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Study, The University of Minnesota study and there's more. Every single one disproves your point. If you've been an Atheist in America and haven't seen this, then you're putting on blinders or live in a liberal city. Edit: Typo. Also real billboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#/media/File:Why_Do_Atheists_Hate_America_billboard.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheist...

poulsbohemian 8y ago

Even here on the left coast, I find it surprising how many people are unwilling to admit their atheism, out of some sense of social threat. I was talking to someone from the UK last week who I thought put it really well - what's happening in the US right now is the final throes of a generation who desperately wants to return to their mental image of the past, unwilling to see their own racist, xenophobic, self-absorbsion. I throw religion in that same bucket, as they've (by which I mean the baby boomers) have convinced themselves that association with Christianity == good / holy / right / just / White / American, making it challenging to move forward socially / politically. Bet in 2020 we'll continue to hear the same trope as every other election that sure, we let that black guy get elected, maybe a woman could get reelected, but there's no way we'll let some atheist get elected.

foobarbazetc 8y ago
The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious (though the black church is scary or something), but Trump is obviously an atheist. Yet they’re treated exactly the opposite by the evangelicals. It’s a bit of a mindfuck until you realize it’s not really about religion at all.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  You nailed it.
- leonroy 8y ago
  > The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious I really did not get that impression at all from his book Dreams From My Father. A quick Google suggests that both his father and mother were atheists at points in their life. I do know that Obama did attend church more often as he started to move into politics.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > but Trump is obviously an atheist. I doubt this: he rather either believes that he is personally chosen by God or God himself. :-)
  - thawkins 8y ago
    There is only one god that trump worships, himself.
    - krapp 8y ago
      The difference between God and Donald Trump is that God doesn't believe he is Donald Trump.
- beatgammit 8y ago
  > Trump is obviously an atheist Huh, I didn't realize Presbyterians were atheist...
stephenr 8y ago
> left coast I take it you never look south.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  I'm not the one who coined the phrase, but I used it here deliberately because of the connotations regarding the demographics of the western US coast: politically and socially progressive, as well as historically reporting lower rates of church membership.

paulgrant999 8y ago

atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position. in reality, its just another religion. true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix. I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can. The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and officialdom recognise "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE. For decades half of those ticking CofE or any of the non-conformist options were a vote for atheism. There's no box, tick what my family grandparents would have. If I had to summarise UK views, most simply don't seem to care, or see the point of a supernatural being, a god, or some ancient human rules that restrict what you can eat or if you may control your reproduction. If you need tobacco or some deity to get through life have at it. Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most.
- paulgrant999 8y ago
  yeah its different here in the US. :) Everything is more polarized/political. Everything. > Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. I discuss theology on a fairly regular basis ;) and philosophy. ;) lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on. Same old shit (hate/misanthropy), just wrapped in new cloth. > "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE Just leave it blank. What to your mind, is the purpose of having an explicit box? I'm curious. > Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most. Eh. I know Buddhist philosophy well. Few people get it. My friend who is an atheist (in the truest sense) is a humanist. So am I. Thats why we're friends. :) But he respects my choice to follow a religion; same as I respect his choice, to follow none.

qubax 8y ago

> and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything. If you are from the UK, what could you possibly know about the US? I'm atheist and have been since 12 or so. My parents are christian. Never had any issues like you described in my entire life. Stop believing exaggerated nonsense from for-profit companies like the new yorker as truths. It's more clickbait fiction than anything. Sure the US may be more religious than other countries. But there are plenty of atheists and agnostics and every other religion and non-religions around. And people get along fine. Frankly, my perception of the UK ( which I've never visited but I've read about so that makes an exper ) is that the atheists in the UK are far more zealous and militant than the religious in the US. But I'm guessing I know as much about the UK as you do about the US.

codeulike 8y ago
I feel like I know a bit about the USA because about 70% of the internet and social media is taken up with discussions of your politics and society. But yes I might have overreached a bit. I'm glad to hear that your (un)religious opinion hasn't affected your life, but I'm thinking specifically about the political arena: The fact that Bernie Sanders has to deny being an atheist, and that Zuckerberg has to suddenly pretend to be religious because he has political ambitions. Things like that just dont happen over here. No-one is particularly interested in the religion or lack thereof of politicians, and it really doesn't get discussed much. (edit: Northern Ireland is a very complicated exception to this) Perhaps quoting Chomsky here isn't a great idea but according to him, the United States is a very fundamentalist, religious country – one of the most extreme in the world. https://chomsky.info/01312016/ https://chomsky.info/01312016/ re: Zealous Atheists in the UK - well we did produce Dawkins but generally atheists over here dont have much to complain about because we are a genuinely secular society. People like Dawkins tend to turn their attention to other countries. And because we're secular, most people don't really have to spend much time thinking what they 'are' at all, in that sense.
cannonedhamster 8y ago
I've lived in the US for my entire life, I've live in both the north and south. Traveled large portions of the country. I've also traveled internationally numerous times. To say that Atheists in the US are hated is putting it mildly. There have been research studies into it, and the results were Atheists were one of the most distrusted groups in America and rated lower than Muslims and actual rapists. You can look up the Pew study, The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Study, The University of Minnesota study and there's more. Every single one disproves your point. If you've been an Atheist in America and haven't seen this, then you're putting on blinders or live in a liberal city. Edit: Typo. Also real billboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#/media/File:Why_Do_Atheists_Hate_America_billboard.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheist...