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Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

50 points by js2 8y ago

codeulike 8y ago
As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  Even here on the left coast, I find it surprising how many people are unwilling to admit their atheism, out of some sense of social threat. I was talking to someone from the UK last week who I thought put it really well - what's happening in the US right now is the final throes of a generation who desperately wants to return to their mental image of the past, unwilling to see their own racist, xenophobic, self-absorbsion. I throw religion in that same bucket, as they've (by which I mean the baby boomers) have convinced themselves that association with Christianity == good / holy / right / just / White / American, making it challenging to move forward socially / politically. Bet in 2020 we'll continue to hear the same trope as every other election that sure, we let that black guy get elected, maybe a woman could get reelected, but there's no way we'll let some atheist get elected.
  - foobarbazetc 8y ago
    The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious (though the black church is scary or something), but Trump is obviously an atheist. Yet they’re treated exactly the opposite by the evangelicals. It’s a bit of a mindfuck until you realize it’s not really about religion at all.
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      You nailed it.
    - leonroy 8y ago
      > The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious I really did not get that impression at all from his book Dreams From My Father. A quick Google suggests that both his father and mother were atheists at points in their life. I do know that Obama did attend church more often as he started to move into politics.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > but Trump is obviously an atheist. I doubt this: he rather either believes that he is personally chosen by God or God himself. :-)
      - thawkins 8y ago
        There is only one god that trump worships, himself.
        krapp 8y ago
        The difference between God and Donald Trump is that God doesn't believe he is Donald Trump.
    - beatgammit 8y ago
      > Trump is obviously an atheist Huh, I didn't realize Presbyterians were atheist...
  - stephenr 8y ago
    > left coast I take it you never look south.
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      I'm not the one who coined the phrase, but I used it here deliberately because of the connotations regarding the demographics of the western US coast: politically and socially progressive, as well as historically reporting lower rates of church membership.
- paulgrant999 8y ago
  atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position. in reality, its just another religion. true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix. I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can. The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and officialdom recognise "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE. For decades half of those ticking CofE or any of the non-conformist options were a vote for atheism. There's no box, tick what my family grandparents would have. If I had to summarise UK views, most simply don't seem to care, or see the point of a supernatural being, a god, or some ancient human rules that restrict what you can eat or if you may control your reproduction. If you need tobacco or some deity to get through life have at it. Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most.
    - paulgrant999 8y ago
      yeah its different here in the US. :) Everything is more polarized/political. Everything. > Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. I discuss theology on a fairly regular basis ;) and philosophy. ;) lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on. Same old shit (hate/misanthropy), just wrapped in new cloth. > "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE Just leave it blank. What to your mind, is the purpose of having an explicit box? I'm curious. > Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most. Eh. I know Buddhist philosophy well. Few people get it. My friend who is an atheist (in the truest sense) is a humanist. So am I. Thats why we're friends. :) But he respects my choice to follow a religion; same as I respect his choice, to follow none.
- qubax 8y ago
  > and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything. If you are from the UK, what could you possibly know about the US? I'm atheist and have been since 12 or so. My parents are christian. Never had any issues like you described in my entire life. Stop believing exaggerated nonsense from for-profit companies like the new yorker as truths. It's more clickbait fiction than anything. Sure the US may be more religious than other countries. But there are plenty of atheists and agnostics and every other religion and non-religions around. And people get along fine. Frankly, my perception of the UK ( which I've never visited but I've read about so that makes an exper ) is that the atheists in the UK are far more zealous and militant than the religious in the US. But I'm guessing I know as much about the UK as you do about the US.
  - codeulike 8y ago
    I feel like I know a bit about the USA because about 70% of the internet and social media is taken up with discussions of your politics and society. But yes I might have overreached a bit. I'm glad to hear that your (un)religious opinion hasn't affected your life, but I'm thinking specifically about the political arena: The fact that Bernie Sanders has to deny being an atheist, and that Zuckerberg has to suddenly pretend to be religious because he has political ambitions. Things like that just dont happen over here. No-one is particularly interested in the religion or lack thereof of politicians, and it really doesn't get discussed much. (edit: Northern Ireland is a very complicated exception to this) Perhaps quoting Chomsky here isn't a great idea but according to him, the United States is a very fundamentalist, religious country – one of the most extreme in the world. https://chomsky.info/01312016/ https://chomsky.info/01312016/ re: Zealous Atheists in the UK - well we did produce Dawkins but generally atheists over here dont have much to complain about because we are a genuinely secular society. People like Dawkins tend to turn their attention to other countries. And because we're secular, most people don't really have to spend much time thinking what they 'are' at all, in that sense.
  - cannonedhamster 8y ago
    I've lived in the US for my entire life, I've live in both the north and south. Traveled large portions of the country. I've also traveled internationally numerous times. To say that Atheists in the US are hated is putting it mildly. There have been research studies into it, and the results were Atheists were one of the most distrusted groups in America and rated lower than Muslims and actual rapists. You can look up the Pew study, The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Study, The University of Minnesota study and there's more. Every single one disproves your point. If you've been an Atheist in America and haven't seen this, then you're putting on blinders or live in a liberal city. Edit: Typo. Also real billboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#/media/File:Why_Do_Atheists_Hate_America_billboard.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheist...
std_throwawayay 8y ago
Atheism also seems to wrongly be a catch-all for things like Agnosticism which is nothing like Atheism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism "Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable. An agnostic can also be one who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic."
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  Atheism is the "lack of a belief in God". It's not the belief that there is no God, it's the lack of a belief that there is one. All agnostics are also atheists.
  - std_throwawayay 8y ago
    It seems to depend on the definition you use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists."
  - GavinMcG 8y ago
    You're conflating belief and knowledge. Agnosticism has to do with epistemic access to God – that is, knowability. One can deny knowability while having a belief in God, and therefore being a theist. It just requires acknowledging that one's belief is and always will be unfounded – a matter of faith.
    - hackeraccount 8y ago
      Just so. If you're give a postulate with no evidence for or against it - do you believe it?
      - 8y ago
Johnny555 8y ago
I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson. One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?” The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.” “This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.’” —Martin Buber, Tales of Hasidim Vol. 2 (1991) https://randysrandom.com/god-create-atheists/ https://randysrandom.com/god-create-atheists/
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  i'd like to upvote you about twenty more times, because you correctly nailed down: 1) The disconnect between American Christians and Atheists 2) How (many) atheists approach moral relativism 3) How (in my atheist mind) Christians should approach the world, akin to the way Jesus did.
- JeanMarcS 8y ago
  Reading the article, I started thinking of how to put my thoughts as clear as possible. But your quote is exactly that ! If history showed a long list of bad things made only by atheists while believers were only virtuous and kind, well, I could eventually understand. Sadly it’s not the case.
  - hackeraccount 8y ago
lj3 8y ago
Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. I don't know why, but humans are hard wired for religion. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303 http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.16... http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25863908 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25863908 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24115346 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24115346 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24908151 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24908151
- JeanMarcS 8y ago
  Maybe it’s because they feel isolated and socially rejected ? In France, there is a lot of atheists or agnostics, but they live as well as any
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- memebox3v 8y ago
  In the uk its a non thing. 50% of my friends are atheists. Its such a non issue that it hardly ever comes up. The first time i had a problem is when i couldnt have a church wedding because I couldnt morally profess a belief in a christian god. My mum in law was very very unhappy. In fact ive felt socially threatened amongst my developer friends when I have been inable to say that I am atheist (I think in a certain sense God is the world and in another sense it also silly to make a claim for or against god, since I believe its impossible to say anything for certain). That opinion gets me ridiculed!
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jim_bailie 8y ago
That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality.
- happytoexplain 8y ago
  In what way do you think the two questions are alike, aside from one being the syntactic reverse of the other? What is the implication of that similarity that made you point it out? [edited for clarity - original post was "why is that?"]
- kapauldo 8y ago
  Logic is a one way street
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality. Because if you accept religious arguments, you can also perfectly argue using similar arguments that also the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) exists.
  - beatgammit 8y ago
    And that's fine. As long as you don't use religious arguments in an academic or professional context, it doesn't matter what unprovable thing you believe in. I'm religious, but if we met in an academic or professional context, you'd likely think I'm agnostic because I try to limit myself to arguments that can be proven using observable and repeatable evidence. If you believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, then have at it. Just don't try to justify a bunch of colanders as a business expense as insurance against an angry FSM, but feel free to wear one as a religious symbol on your own dime.
- BLKNSLVR 8y ago
  It could be that atheism is less passive. Someone who describes themselves as atheist has evaluated the situation and come to a conclusion. I know a number of people, including in my family, that describe themselves as religious one way or another, despite the fact they don't actively participate in any religious practice even down to going to church at all. We celebrate Christmas and Easter because tradition, and that seems to contribute to this passive religious-ness. I personally don't care what other people believe in, because it rarely affects how I interact with them on a daily basis. Good luck to them. However, as an atheist I'm not really discomforted with religion and spirituality, it's more I find it an interesting phenomena; the blatant hypocrisy 'they' often display in claiming something is wrong or crazy in comparison to their chosen position (passively or otherwise). It points to a mental processing flaw; an inability to see logic when it threatens their world view. The human condition.
everybodyknows 8y ago
To my particle physics professor of many springtimes past, God was the creator of the puzzles to be solved by people like himself. Becoming satisfied with that has nicely simplified my life.
wolfgke 8y ago
"The reason that atheists were not allowed to testify in court for so long was the certainty that witnesses who were unwilling to swear an oath to God had no reason to be truthful, since they did not fear divine judgment." Just a consideration: What if you believe in a God that has much more important things to do than punishing believers who break an oath in His/Her/Its name? I mean: being of such supreme intelligence, how can he/she/it not rather deal with things that are so far away from our intellectual understanding as it is for, say, a polyp to think about string theory?!
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Ws32ok 8y ago
Let's explore religion for a moment and why it tends to hate atheism so much. 1. People who believe are threatened by those who do not. It is disconcerting to have belief systems attacked or ripped out from under you. "Those who are not us can't be trusted." Groups tend to passionately hate individuals who don't want to be members. 2. Non-belief has definite consequences in most religions. Conformism is a trait of religious people. Leaving is unacceptable to many. Muslim extremists have definite opinions about apostasy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy 3. Santa Claus is a good example. A kid is told about Santa. Presents appear. One day the older brother figures it out. He is told, do you want presents or is Santa not real? I think this is a microcosm of multiple belief systems. Remove the possibility of presents/rewards and multiple religions vanish in a puff of smoke. 4. It's an amazing coincidence that people tend to have the same religion as their parents and community. And this saves them from eternal damnation. What about the people who existed before the religion was created? 5. Religion has no monopoly on morality or virtue. Evidence has shown that religious people are quite capable of breaking rules. Multiple religions cite divorce as "a bad thing" yet plenty of religious people do it. Murder, theft and cursing still exist. 6. Validity of religion in general can be exposed by getting a religious person to explain why they would not convert to another. Their reasons increasingly become more difficult to defend. Remember that it is likely only one belief system is true and all others are false. And your religion was likely chosen before you were born. This is an awkward truth many don't want to discuss. 7. If you've read this far, please know that I'm not atheist.
jkmcf 8y ago
I’m more interested in why so many Christians quote the Old Testament to justify their non-Christian attitudes and actions.
SOMMS 8y ago
Long story short - because it's deeply un-American. Atheism is fundamentally at odds with the values and ideals of the founding fathers and the vision they had for America. Remember this is a country that was born because "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". The idea that all are created in God's image therefore all are equal - is a foundation for why our country exists in the first place. That's a fundamental gene in the American DNA. Moreover the founding fathers were either A-devout Christians themselves or B-held considerable regard for the Christian religion. Yes there's the odd quote about the shortcomings of organized religion, Jefferson's Bible, Ben Franklin's religious aloofness - however, the founding fathers were overwhelmingly what most today would consider 'devout' Christians. Take for example, the members of Constitutional Convention of 1787 (which authored the Constitution) - 96% were Protestant, %4 were Roman Catholic. A fair portion of these were actually trained for ministry. Or this quote (among many others) of George Washington - "I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them." ...in which he literally outlines his abhorrence to the omission of God from the American consciousness...because of what God has done for it. This is not to say atheism is 'wrong' or religion is 'right' or vice versa. It's just to say that American and Christianity have been historically intertwined. It should be self evident why atheism is considered a taboo here.
- masonic 8y ago
  Moreover the founding fathers were either A-devout Christians themselves or B-held considerable regard for the Christian religion. Actually, a plurality of them were Deists, specifically disbelieving any divinity of Christ.
  - SOMMS 8y ago
    Out of curiosity - why was the above post flagged? It didn't violate any of the HN commenting rules. It didn't advocate for/against atheism/religion (this was explicitly stated), and it didn't state anything that was not factual. ??

50 points by js2 8y ago

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

poulsbohemian 8y ago
Even here on the left coast, I find it surprising how many people are unwilling to admit their atheism, out of some sense of social threat. I was talking to someone from the UK last week who I thought put it really well - what's happening in the US right now is the final throes of a generation who desperately wants to return to their mental image of the past, unwilling to see their own racist, xenophobic, self-absorbsion. I throw religion in that same bucket, as they've (by which I mean the baby boomers) have convinced themselves that association with Christianity == good / holy / right / just / White / American, making it challenging to move forward socially / politically. Bet in 2020 we'll continue to hear the same trope as every other election that sure, we let that black guy get elected, maybe a woman could get reelected, but there's no way we'll let some atheist get elected.
- foobarbazetc 8y ago
  The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious (though the black church is scary or something), but Trump is obviously an atheist. Yet they’re treated exactly the opposite by the evangelicals. It’s a bit of a mindfuck until you realize it’s not really about religion at all.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    You nailed it.
  - leonroy 8y ago
    > The weirdest part about all this is that Obama was deeply religious I really did not get that impression at all from his book Dreams From My Father. A quick Google suggests that both his father and mother were atheists at points in their life. I do know that Obama did attend church more often as he started to move into politics.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > but Trump is obviously an atheist. I doubt this: he rather either believes that he is personally chosen by God or God himself. :-)
    - thawkins 8y ago
      There is only one god that trump worships, himself.
      - krapp 8y ago
        The difference between God and Donald Trump is that God doesn't believe he is Donald Trump.
  - beatgammit 8y ago
    > Trump is obviously an atheist Huh, I didn't realize Presbyterians were atheist...
- stephenr 8y ago
  > left coast I take it you never look south.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    I'm not the one who coined the phrase, but I used it here deliberately because of the connotations regarding the demographics of the western US coast: politically and socially progressive, as well as historically reporting lower rates of church membership.
paulgrant999 8y ago
atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position. in reality, its just another religion. true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix. I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can. The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and officialdom recognise "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE. For decades half of those ticking CofE or any of the non-conformist options were a vote for atheism. There's no box, tick what my family grandparents would have. If I had to summarise UK views, most simply don't seem to care, or see the point of a supernatural being, a god, or some ancient human rules that restrict what you can eat or if you may control your reproduction. If you need tobacco or some deity to get through life have at it. Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most.
  - paulgrant999 8y ago
    yeah its different here in the US. :) Everything is more polarized/political. Everything. > Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. I discuss theology on a fairly regular basis ;) and philosophy. ;) lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on. Same old shit (hate/misanthropy), just wrapped in new cloth. > "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE Just leave it blank. What to your mind, is the purpose of having an explicit box? I'm curious. > Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most. Eh. I know Buddhist philosophy well. Few people get it. My friend who is an atheist (in the truest sense) is a humanist. So am I. Thats why we're friends. :) But he respects my choice to follow a religion; same as I respect his choice, to follow none.
qubax 8y ago
> and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything. If you are from the UK, what could you possibly know about the US? I'm atheist and have been since 12 or so. My parents are christian. Never had any issues like you described in my entire life. Stop believing exaggerated nonsense from for-profit companies like the new yorker as truths. It's more clickbait fiction than anything. Sure the US may be more religious than other countries. But there are plenty of atheists and agnostics and every other religion and non-religions around. And people get along fine. Frankly, my perception of the UK ( which I've never visited but I've read about so that makes an exper ) is that the atheists in the UK are far more zealous and militant than the religious in the US. But I'm guessing I know as much about the UK as you do about the US.
- codeulike 8y ago
  I feel like I know a bit about the USA because about 70% of the internet and social media is taken up with discussions of your politics and society. But yes I might have overreached a bit. I'm glad to hear that your (un)religious opinion hasn't affected your life, but I'm thinking specifically about the political arena: The fact that Bernie Sanders has to deny being an atheist, and that Zuckerberg has to suddenly pretend to be religious because he has political ambitions. Things like that just dont happen over here. No-one is particularly interested in the religion or lack thereof of politicians, and it really doesn't get discussed much. (edit: Northern Ireland is a very complicated exception to this) Perhaps quoting Chomsky here isn't a great idea but according to him, the United States is a very fundamentalist, religious country – one of the most extreme in the world. https://chomsky.info/01312016/ https://chomsky.info/01312016/ re: Zealous Atheists in the UK - well we did produce Dawkins but generally atheists over here dont have much to complain about because we are a genuinely secular society. People like Dawkins tend to turn their attention to other countries. And because we're secular, most people don't really have to spend much time thinking what they 'are' at all, in that sense.
- cannonedhamster 8y ago
  I've lived in the US for my entire life, I've live in both the north and south. Traveled large portions of the country. I've also traveled internationally numerous times. To say that Atheists in the US are hated is putting it mildly. There have been research studies into it, and the results were Atheists were one of the most distrusted groups in America and rated lower than Muslims and actual rapists. You can look up the Pew study, The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Study, The University of Minnesota study and there's more. Every single one disproves your point. If you've been an Atheist in America and haven't seen this, then you're putting on blinders or live in a liberal city. Edit: Typo. Also real billboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#/media/File:Why_Do_Atheists_Hate_America_billboard.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheist...

std_throwawayay 8y ago

Atheism also seems to wrongly be a catch-all for things like Agnosticism which is nothing like Atheism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism "Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable. An agnostic can also be one who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic."

bryanlarsen 8y ago
Atheism is the "lack of a belief in God". It's not the belief that there is no God, it's the lack of a belief that there is one. All agnostics are also atheists.
- std_throwawayay 8y ago
  It seems to depend on the definition you use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists."
- GavinMcG 8y ago
  You're conflating belief and knowledge. Agnosticism has to do with epistemic access to God – that is, knowability. One can deny knowability while having a belief in God, and therefore being a theist. It just requires acknowledging that one's belief is and always will be unfounded – a matter of faith.
  - hackeraccount 8y ago
    Just so. If you're give a postulate with no evidence for or against it - do you believe it?
    - 8y ago

Johnny555 8y ago

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson. One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?” The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.” “This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.’” —Martin Buber, Tales of Hasidim Vol. 2 (1991) https://randysrandom.com/god-create-atheists/ https://randysrandom.com/god-create-atheists/

poulsbohemian 8y ago
i'd like to upvote you about twenty more times, because you correctly nailed down: 1) The disconnect between American Christians and Atheists 2) How (many) atheists approach moral relativism 3) How (in my atheist mind) Christians should approach the world, akin to the way Jesus did.
JeanMarcS 8y ago
Reading the article, I started thinking of how to put my thoughts as clear as possible. But your quote is exactly that ! If history showed a long list of bad things made only by atheists while believers were only virtuous and kind, well, I could eventually understand. Sadly it’s not the case.
- hackeraccount 8y ago

lj3 8y ago

Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. I don't know why, but humans are hard wired for religion. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303 http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.16... http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25863908 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25863908 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24115346 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24115346 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24908151 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24908151

JeanMarcS 8y ago
Maybe it’s because they feel isolated and socially rejected ? In France, there is a lot of atheists or agnostics, but they live as well as any
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memebox3v 8y ago
In the uk its a non thing. 50% of my friends are atheists. Its such a non issue that it hardly ever comes up. The first time i had a problem is when i couldnt have a church wedding because I couldnt morally profess a belief in a christian god. My mum in law was very very unhappy. In fact ive felt socially threatened amongst my developer friends when I have been inable to say that I am atheist (I think in a certain sense God is the world and in another sense it also silly to make a claim for or against god, since I believe its impossible to say anything for certain). That opinion gets me ridiculed!
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jim_bailie 8y ago

That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality.

happytoexplain 8y ago
In what way do you think the two questions are alike, aside from one being the syntactic reverse of the other? What is the implication of that similarity that made you point it out? [edited for clarity - original post was "why is that?"]
kapauldo 8y ago
Logic is a one way street
wolfgke 8y ago
> That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality. Because if you accept religious arguments, you can also perfectly argue using similar arguments that also the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) exists.
- beatgammit 8y ago
  And that's fine. As long as you don't use religious arguments in an academic or professional context, it doesn't matter what unprovable thing you believe in. I'm religious, but if we met in an academic or professional context, you'd likely think I'm agnostic because I try to limit myself to arguments that can be proven using observable and repeatable evidence. If you believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, then have at it. Just don't try to justify a bunch of colanders as a business expense as insurance against an angry FSM, but feel free to wear one as a religious symbol on your own dime.
BLKNSLVR 8y ago
It could be that atheism is less passive. Someone who describes themselves as atheist has evaluated the situation and come to a conclusion. I know a number of people, including in my family, that describe themselves as religious one way or another, despite the fact they don't actively participate in any religious practice even down to going to church at all. We celebrate Christmas and Easter because tradition, and that seems to contribute to this passive religious-ness. I personally don't care what other people believe in, because it rarely affects how I interact with them on a daily basis. Good luck to them. However, as an atheist I'm not really discomforted with religion and spirituality, it's more I find it an interesting phenomena; the blatant hypocrisy 'they' often display in claiming something is wrong or crazy in comparison to their chosen position (passively or otherwise). It points to a mental processing flaw; an inability to see logic when it threatens their world view. The human condition.

everybodyknows 8y ago

To my particle physics professor of many springtimes past, God was the creator of the puzzles to be solved by people like himself. Becoming satisfied with that has nicely simplified my life.

wolfgke 8y ago

"The reason that atheists were not allowed to testify in court for so long was the certainty that witnesses who were unwilling to swear an oath to God had no reason to be truthful, since they did not fear divine judgment." Just a consideration: What if you believe in a God that has much more important things to do than punishing believers who break an oath in His/Her/Its name? I mean: being of such supreme intelligence, how can he/she/it not rather deal with things that are so far away from our intellectual understanding as it is for, say, a polyp to think about string theory?!

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Ws32ok 8y ago

Let's explore religion for a moment and why it tends to hate atheism so much. 1. People who believe are threatened by those who do not. It is disconcerting to have belief systems attacked or ripped out from under you. "Those who are not us can't be trusted." Groups tend to passionately hate individuals who don't want to be members. 2. Non-belief has definite consequences in most religions. Conformism is a trait of religious people. Leaving is unacceptable to many. Muslim extremists have definite opinions about apostasy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy 3. Santa Claus is a good example. A kid is told about Santa. Presents appear. One day the older brother figures it out. He is told, do you want presents or is Santa not real? I think this is a microcosm of multiple belief systems. Remove the possibility of presents/rewards and multiple religions vanish in a puff of smoke. 4. It's an amazing coincidence that people tend to have the same religion as their parents and community. And this saves them from eternal damnation. What about the people who existed before the religion was created? 5. Religion has no monopoly on morality or virtue. Evidence has shown that religious people are quite capable of breaking rules. Multiple religions cite divorce as "a bad thing" yet plenty of religious people do it. Murder, theft and cursing still exist. 6. Validity of religion in general can be exposed by getting a religious person to explain why they would not convert to another. Their reasons increasingly become more difficult to defend. Remember that it is likely only one belief system is true and all others are false. And your religion was likely chosen before you were born. This is an awkward truth many don't want to discuss. 7. If you've read this far, please know that I'm not atheist.

jkmcf 8y ago

I’m more interested in why so many Christians quote the Old Testament to justify their non-Christian attitudes and actions.

SOMMS 8y ago

Long story short - because it's deeply un-American. Atheism is fundamentally at odds with the values and ideals of the founding fathers and the vision they had for America. Remember this is a country that was born because "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". The idea that all are created in God's image therefore all are equal - is a foundation for why our country exists in the first place. That's a fundamental gene in the American DNA. Moreover the founding fathers were either A-devout Christians themselves or B-held considerable regard for the Christian religion. Yes there's the odd quote about the shortcomings of organized religion, Jefferson's Bible, Ben Franklin's religious aloofness - however, the founding fathers were overwhelmingly what most today would consider 'devout' Christians. Take for example, the members of Constitutional Convention of 1787 (which authored the Constitution) - 96% were Protestant, %4 were Roman Catholic. A fair portion of these were actually trained for ministry. Or this quote (among many others) of George Washington - "I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them." ...in which he literally outlines his abhorrence to the omission of God from the American consciousness...because of what God has done for it. This is not to say atheism is 'wrong' or religion is 'right' or vice versa. It's just to say that American and Christianity have been historically intertwined. It should be self evident why atheism is considered a taboo here.

masonic 8y ago
Moreover the founding fathers were either A-devout Christians themselves or B-held considerable regard for the Christian religion. Actually, a plurality of them were Deists, specifically disbelieving any divinity of Christ.
- SOMMS 8y ago
  Out of curiosity - why was the above post flagged? It didn't violate any of the HN commenting rules. It didn't advocate for/against atheism/religion (this was explicitly stated), and it didn't state anything that was not factual. ??