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> There is such a thing as 'progress', after all. That's a bold claim that too many people accept without question and about which too few actually consider th

> There is such a thing as 'progress', after all. That's a bold claim that too many people accept without question and about which too few actually consider the implications. Progress is improvement. It's moving forward. The notion requires accepting the idea that you were at one point behind where you are now or not as developed/complete/refined. That's fine if you are talking about technology or some other mundane topic, but to make that claim in the context of Christianity - a religion ENTIRELY dependent upon the veracity and completeness of the stories and traditions it is based upon - is to call into question the entire faith.

weberc2 8y ago
You've got it switched. Progress in the context of Christianity logically follows from the notion that some things are better/truer/holier than other things. If you can accept that anything has gotten better/truer/holier over time, then you believe in progress. Specifically, if you believe it's good that the Church is no longer teaching poor people that they have to pay for their family to go to heaven, then you believe in progress. If you don't believe in progress, then you don't believe in truth/goodness/holiness, then you are actually questioning the entire faith and we can't have a meaningful conversation.
- camelNotation 8y ago
  By using something like indulgences as an example, you're making a false equivalency. It's certainly possible to call it progress if you are RECOVERING from a fall. You start high, dip down, progress back up to where you were. Indulgences did not exist in the early church and didn't even exist outside of the European church when they were a thing. In that context, the recovery of what was true was not progress, it was repair. But to imply that from the BEGINNING Christians were incorrect on something as important as sacramental theology and the role of music in sacramental theology is a completely separate claim with severe implications, as I described above.
  - weberc2 8y ago
    I don’t know what you mean by “from the beginning”, but in any case there is no existential faith crisis in rejecting even very early traditions or beliefs which were not part of scripture, as evidenced by the prolific success of Bible-focused denominations. The idea that hymns are the one true way to worship is utter nonsense.

weberc2 8y ago

You've got it switched. Progress in the context of Christianity logically follows from the notion that some things are better/truer/holier than other things. If you can accept that anything has gotten better/truer/holier over time, then you believe in progress. Specifically, if you believe it's good that the Church is no longer teaching poor people that they have to pay for their family to go to heaven, then you believe in progress. If you don't believe in progress, then you don't believe in truth/goodness/holiness, then you are actually questioning the entire faith and we can't have a meaningful conversation.

camelNotation 8y ago
By using something like indulgences as an example, you're making a false equivalency. It's certainly possible to call it progress if you are RECOVERING from a fall. You start high, dip down, progress back up to where you were. Indulgences did not exist in the early church and didn't even exist outside of the European church when they were a thing. In that context, the recovery of what was true was not progress, it was repair. But to imply that from the BEGINNING Christians were incorrect on something as important as sacramental theology and the role of music in sacramental theology is a completely separate claim with severe implications, as I described above.
- weberc2 8y ago
  I don’t know what you mean by “from the beginning”, but in any case there is no existential faith crisis in rejecting even very early traditions or beliefs which were not part of scripture, as evidenced by the prolific success of Bible-focused denominations. The idea that hymns are the one true way to worship is utter nonsense.