4 ms·

It's unpleasant how many of his points just ring true in my mind instantly. I connected it with PG's essay, too, where he asks why students should have to ask t

It's unpleasant how many of his points just ring true in my mind instantly. I connected it with PG's essay, too, where he asks why students should have to ask to go to the bathroom. But my theory is that a school system cannot be designed in a one-size-fits-all sort of way. There are students who will take advantage of lenient teachers, instead of learning. It is because of them that the rest of the students cannot progress as they could have. I've wondered about it often. I have no idea what to do. None.

gruseom 18y ago
I've wondered about it often. I have no idea what to do. None. I sympathize. It seems to me that part of the block comes from defining the problem monolithically: how can we take the standard system we have and make a better standard system out of it? Nobody seems to have a good answer to that. Maybe we should stop asking it and instead go through a period of decentralization and even destandardization. Let all sorts of experiments be tried. There's a study I read about that showed that when great schools or great teachers achieve amazing things, attempts to reproduce what they do almost always fail. The problem seems to be in the systematizing impulse itself. Can there even be a bureaucracy that sustains life, joy, creativity? Here's an example of what I mean (I may have even got this from Gatto). In the traditional one-room farm schoolhouse, there weren't enough children to segregate by age, so by necessity they would work side by side on different things. This has interesting effects. You no longer have the problem that not all kids are at the same level; each is working at his/her level anyway. So, no reason why a bright 9-year-old can't study math with the 15-year-olds (but play with kids their own age at recess). Another example is that because one teacher simply can't address all the different subjects at once, older kids end up teaching and mentoring younger ones. Think of the organizational contortions required to set up things like this in most schools. Of course, I'm not saying that everyone should go to a one-room farm school. My point is that we need a great deal more diversity and that maybe policy should support this instead of trying to fix everything the same way (or even at all). People will cry out about the risks of destandardization but really, if you stop to think about it, kids want to learn. Passionately. They're hard-wired to do it. What we should be asking is not how we can get them to learn but how we ever manage to program the desire out of them. Personal anecdote: when my daughter was in the third grade (and had a teacher she loved), she would get up in the morning and literally jump for joy that she was going to school. I don't mean little bunny hops... I mean she would jump up and down bigtime and sing "I'm going to schooooool!" Just a short time later (after the teacher she loved was fired and not even allowed to say goodbye to the class... different story) a pallor that I can only call depression came over her about everything associated with school. It took years for signs of intellectual excitement to return.
- PieSquared 18y ago
  Whoa. Your story is pretty... well, unpleasant, I suppose. Especially at such a young age. It's all too often that people give up on education just because the school system sucks. At my school, I'm branded as a "nerd", often because I don't think I've joined that group of people who have given up on intellectual curiosity just because the school system is inadequate. What bothers me, though, is that such an attitude is pervasive through a very large portion of my school, even though it is an advanced program school. Ah well. I hope it will become better. Maybe I'll be able to do something about it someday. I'd certainly love to.
- brlewis 18y ago
  how can we take the standard system we have and make a better standard system out of it? Nobody seems to have a good answer to that. Montessori is a good answer. The U.S. could convert its standard system to Montessori. The project could be funded by taking money out of the invade-small-oil-rich-countries budget. It only doesn't happen because the U.S. does not make education a priority.
hugh 18y ago
I don't think I've read the essay about why children need to ask to go to the bathroom, but it seems to me that the answer should be pretty obvious to anyone who's ever had to take care of thirty ten-year-old kids. It's hard enough even when they're all within your line of sight -- if they go wandering off to the "bathroom" at random intervals then surely disaster looms.
- PieSquared 18y ago
  Ten year olds - yes. A few years older - I'm not so sure. Take the extreme case: should someone able to vote have to? (There are 18-year olds in school, that's what I mean.)
- rms 18y ago
  I had a fifth grade teacher who insisted that you didn't need to ask to go the bathroom. She said we were all responsible enough to just do it and there was no need to interrupt the class. Nothing bad ever happened.
boredguy8 18y ago
"But my theory is that a school system cannot be designed in a one-size-fits-all sort of way." It can be, and was for hundreds of years. It wasn't until the practice of the assembly line was forced on education that the breakdown began. The justification, though obfuscated, was something like this: "We can't have thinkers in a world in which we need lever pullers. Well educated people (in a classical sense) won't ever be content working on an assembly line (or other modern equivalents), so we must make them functionally literate, and not actually literate. Then they can be happy pulling levers and pushing buttons, and society can flourish." It's no wonder that the school day is 'assembled', so similar to the factory that we even have bells moving people in shifts governed by a bell.

gruseom 18y ago

I've wondered about it often. I have no idea what to do. None. I sympathize. It seems to me that part of the block comes from defining the problem monolithically: how can we take the standard system we have and make a better standard system out of it? Nobody seems to have a good answer to that. Maybe we should stop asking it and instead go through a period of decentralization and even destandardization. Let all sorts of experiments be tried. There's a study I read about that showed that when great schools or great teachers achieve amazing things, attempts to reproduce what they do almost always fail. The problem seems to be in the systematizing impulse itself. Can there even be a bureaucracy that sustains life, joy, creativity? Here's an example of what I mean (I may have even got this from Gatto). In the traditional one-room farm schoolhouse, there weren't enough children to segregate by age, so by necessity they would work side by side on different things. This has interesting effects. You no longer have the problem that not all kids are at the same level; each is working at his/her level anyway. So, no reason why a bright 9-year-old can't study math with the 15-year-olds (but play with kids their own age at recess). Another example is that because one teacher simply can't address all the different subjects at once, older kids end up teaching and mentoring younger ones. Think of the organizational contortions required to set up things like this in most schools. Of course, I'm not saying that everyone should go to a one-room farm school. My point is that we need a great deal more diversity and that maybe policy should support this instead of trying to fix everything the same way (or even at all). People will cry out about the risks of destandardization but really, if you stop to think about it, kids want to learn. Passionately. They're hard-wired to do it. What we should be asking is not how we can get them to learn but how we ever manage to program the desire out of them. Personal anecdote: when my daughter was in the third grade (and had a teacher she loved), she would get up in the morning and literally jump for joy that she was going to school. I don't mean little bunny hops... I mean she would jump up and down bigtime and sing "I'm going to schooooool!" Just a short time later (after the teacher she loved was fired and not even allowed to say goodbye to the class... different story) a pallor that I can only call depression came over her about everything associated with school. It took years for signs of intellectual excitement to return.

PieSquared 18y ago
Whoa. Your story is pretty... well, unpleasant, I suppose. Especially at such a young age. It's all too often that people give up on education just because the school system sucks. At my school, I'm branded as a "nerd", often because I don't think I've joined that group of people who have given up on intellectual curiosity just because the school system is inadequate. What bothers me, though, is that such an attitude is pervasive through a very large portion of my school, even though it is an advanced program school. Ah well. I hope it will become better. Maybe I'll be able to do something about it someday. I'd certainly love to.
brlewis 18y ago
how can we take the standard system we have and make a better standard system out of it? Nobody seems to have a good answer to that. Montessori is a good answer. The U.S. could convert its standard system to Montessori. The project could be funded by taking money out of the invade-small-oil-rich-countries budget. It only doesn't happen because the U.S. does not make education a priority.

hugh 18y ago

I don't think I've read the essay about why children need to ask to go to the bathroom, but it seems to me that the answer should be pretty obvious to anyone who's ever had to take care of thirty ten-year-old kids. It's hard enough even when they're all within your line of sight -- if they go wandering off to the "bathroom" at random intervals then surely disaster looms.

PieSquared 18y ago
Ten year olds - yes. A few years older - I'm not so sure. Take the extreme case: should someone able to vote have to? (There are 18-year olds in school, that's what I mean.)
rms 18y ago
I had a fifth grade teacher who insisted that you didn't need to ask to go the bathroom. She said we were all responsible enough to just do it and there was no need to interrupt the class. Nothing bad ever happened.

boredguy8 18y ago

"But my theory is that a school system cannot be designed in a one-size-fits-all sort of way." It can be, and was for hundreds of years. It wasn't until the practice of the assembly line was forced on education that the breakdown began. The justification, though obfuscated, was something like this: "We can't have thinkers in a world in which we need lever pullers. Well educated people (in a classical sense) won't ever be content working on an assembly line (or other modern equivalents), so we must make them functionally literate, and not actually literate. Then they can be happy pulling levers and pushing buttons, and society can flourish." It's no wonder that the school day is 'assembled', so similar to the factory that we even have bells moving people in shifts governed by a bell.