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Everything we know about Lee now was known when McChrystal was a new enlistee. He should be more ashamed for subscribing to the Cult Of Lee, perhaps America's

Everything we know about Lee now was known when McChrystal was a new enlistee. He should be more ashamed for subscribing to the Cult Of Lee, perhaps America's most overrated historical figure. By the way if you are going to damn Lee or any other Confederate, you might as well damn the Union as well...virulent racism on a level that would be considered shocking today was mainstream at the time, even in the North. How many towns and cities in the North continued to suggest that Blacks settle elsewhere? Even Lincoln himself claimed to not consider Blacks to be the equal of Whites (see the Lincoln Douglas debates)

fra 8y ago
'Everything is awful and everybody should feel bad' Still, this is an influential public figure admitting to changing his views and taking a stance on a controversial topic. We should encourage it and hope we will see more of it, rather than whatever it is that you are doing.
smacktoward 8y ago
The Lincoln-Douglas debates were in 1858. Lincoln did a lot of evolving between then and his death in 1865. Being President during the deepest crisis in the history of the office will do that to you.
forapurpose 8y ago
Let's look in the mirror: What beliefs do many of us hold that later will be considered beyond the pale? People get their morals from the norms of society and people around them; it's not so easy to hold beliefs that violate those norms, for good or ill - people consider you a nut, lose respect for you, and don't want to discuss it with you. It's hard to be the only one in the meeting who raises their hand to object, especially on ethical grounds (which implies everyone else is unethical - they love that). It's hard to go against the grain on HN. I'm talking about McChrystal; I'm not excusing Lee. Around Lee there were plenty of abolitionists and slavery was illegal in half the country; he had plenty of examples to follow.
- mcguire 8y ago
  For anyone else who doesn't know who Stanley A. McChrystal is: "Stanley Allen McChrystal (born August 14, 1954) is a retired United States Army general best known for his command of Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) in the mid-2000s. His last assignment was as Commander, International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and Commander, U.S. Forces - Afghanistan (USFOR-A). He previously served as Director, Joint Staff from August 2008 to June 2009 and as Commander of JSOC from 2003 to 2008, where he was credited with the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, but also criticized for his alleged role in the cover-up of the Pat Tillman friendly fire incident. McChrystal was reportedly known for saying and thinking what other military leaders were afraid to; this was one of the reasons cited for his appointment to lead all forces in Afghanista and also the reason he was ultimately relieved of his command. He held the post from June 15, 2009 to June 23, 2010." I'm not at all sure I'm comfortable taking moral advice from him. On the other hand, if we do on this issue, then we can have no statues of any American prior to the advent of the abolition movement and none other than abolitionists until after the Civil War. Perhaps Lincoln? Eisenhower? Johnson shot his own reputation down with Viet Nam. On the other, other hand, Lee was a good general, and apparently a decent enough man for his time. Yes, he fought to preserve the South and slavery, but when he lost, he lost. He surrendered. He could have told his soldiers to fade off into the woods and continue fighting, in which case US history would likely more resemble Mexico's. (C.f. Nathand Bedford Forrest.) Lee was respected as a general enough to make a military surrender stick. I'm reasonably ok with taking down Confederate statues, particularly those put up in the 1930s-1950s. I'm more than ok removing the "Confederate" flags---it's actually represented the KKK for more than a hundred years. But I do have a soft spot for Lee.

fra 8y ago

'Everything is awful and everybody should feel bad' Still, this is an influential public figure admitting to changing his views and taking a stance on a controversial topic. We should encourage it and hope we will see more of it, rather than whatever it is that you are doing.

smacktoward 8y ago

The Lincoln-Douglas debates were in 1858. Lincoln did a lot of evolving between then and his death in 1865. Being President during the deepest crisis in the history of the office will do that to you.

forapurpose 8y ago

Let's look in the mirror: What beliefs do many of us hold that later will be considered beyond the pale? People get their morals from the norms of society and people around them; it's not so easy to hold beliefs that violate those norms, for good or ill - people consider you a nut, lose respect for you, and don't want to discuss it with you. It's hard to be the only one in the meeting who raises their hand to object, especially on ethical grounds (which implies everyone else is unethical - they love that). It's hard to go against the grain on HN. I'm talking about McChrystal; I'm not excusing Lee. Around Lee there were plenty of abolitionists and slavery was illegal in half the country; he had plenty of examples to follow.

mcguire 8y ago
For anyone else who doesn't know who Stanley A. McChrystal is: "Stanley Allen McChrystal (born August 14, 1954) is a retired United States Army general best known for his command of Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) in the mid-2000s. His last assignment was as Commander, International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and Commander, U.S. Forces - Afghanistan (USFOR-A). He previously served as Director, Joint Staff from August 2008 to June 2009 and as Commander of JSOC from 2003 to 2008, where he was credited with the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, but also criticized for his alleged role in the cover-up of the Pat Tillman friendly fire incident. McChrystal was reportedly known for saying and thinking what other military leaders were afraid to; this was one of the reasons cited for his appointment to lead all forces in Afghanista and also the reason he was ultimately relieved of his command. He held the post from June 15, 2009 to June 23, 2010." I'm not at all sure I'm comfortable taking moral advice from him. On the other hand, if we do on this issue, then we can have no statues of any American prior to the advent of the abolition movement and none other than abolitionists until after the Civil War. Perhaps Lincoln? Eisenhower? Johnson shot his own reputation down with Viet Nam. On the other, other hand, Lee was a good general, and apparently a decent enough man for his time. Yes, he fought to preserve the South and slavery, but when he lost, he lost. He surrendered. He could have told his soldiers to fade off into the woods and continue fighting, in which case US history would likely more resemble Mexico's. (C.f. Nathand Bedford Forrest.) Lee was respected as a general enough to make a military surrender stick. I'm reasonably ok with taking down Confederate statues, particularly those put up in the 1930s-1950s. I'm more than ok removing the "Confederate" flags---it's actually represented the KKK for more than a hundred years. But I do have a soft spot for Lee.