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I've been playing in worship groups for +20 years now and I'm currently leading the youth band in a very small church and here are two things that I've been not

I've been playing in worship groups for +20 years now and I'm currently leading the youth band in a very small church and here are two things that I've been noting recently: Hillsong's music and most "mainstream" music that come from white english-spoken megachurches have lyrics that talk about "grace","love" and "God accepting you as you are". While the themes on worship music coming from South America (and I think black churches in US too) are more about "Joy", "Freedom" and "God, the mighty warrior defeating his enemies and delivering his people". I found that really interesting. The other thing is that even while Hillsong's and similar music is very shallow and simplistic, it is becoming increasingly difficult to perform with simple, cheap instruments. So small and poor bands like ours lose appeal against the ones in megachurches with lots of instruments, talent-pool and technology. I, for one, I'm embracing this and going for a rock-punk attitude for my little worship band.

thrmsforbfast 8y ago
The difference in emphasis you noticed (grace, love, and acceptance vs. joy, freedom, and deliverance) has deep historical roots that go back much further than colonial history. As an exercise, even the apostles -- and the prophets before them -- can be read in terms of which side of this dichotomy they preferred in their rhetoric. If you read the bible every year and choose a list of themes/topics to focus on, this is an interesting one. Another really interesting fact: this difference in style correlates much better with demographics than with doctrine/dogma/congregation. There was a dissertation or maybe book about this, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.
- akoshodi 8y ago
  The Book "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes" reveals how cultural biases influence how we interpret/misinterpret the Bible. One of the examples given was the difference between our (western) individualistic culture and the collectivist culture which the Bible was written.
Twirrim 8y ago
There's another interesting language difference to look at, both within the history of Western worship, and in various countries. Western worship has become heavily "I/Me" based, where historically it was more "Us/We" based. To the point it's starting to drive me crazy. Worship is becoming almost entirely selfish. A group of individuals having an individual experience, instead of a group of people having a collective, binding, experience with God.
- BadThink6655321 8y ago
  I'm reminded of two things. First, Knuth's article "On the Complexity of Songs", which features K. C. and the Sunshine band's "That's the way..." (Knuth, btw, is a Christian). Second, many years ago, a music minister and I were goofing around with worship songs set to disco music. I did, "That's the way, uh huh, huh huh, I praise Him, uh huh, uh huh..." This was, partly, to express my discontent with I-focused worship and banal lyrics. He responded with an amazing, impromptu version of the Bee Gee's "Staying Alive" with the lyrics "He is alive! He is alive!".
zupzupper 8y ago
Lost and Found (band) I think has some nice song books if you've never come across them. Two piece band, guitar and piano, simple music, large variety of subject matter, very different sound.
bartread 8y ago
> The other thing is that even while Hillsong's and similar music is very shallow and simplistic, it is becoming increasingly difficult to perform with simple, cheap instruments. So small and poor bands like ours lose appeal against the ones in megachurches with lots of instruments, talent-pool and technology. Generally a good song can hold up when performed on a single piano or acoustic guitar, and obviously with a singer[1]. The problem here is not you: it's the songs. Assuming you're half competent musicians, which you sound like you are, they don't sound good when you play them, not because your instruments are cheap and your band is small, but because they don't hold up as songs. They're not strong enough to carry themselves with a simple arrangement. I suspect it's not a conscious effort but what Hillsong (and others) are doing is using an impressive production to disguise weak songs. And even if in some cases I'm wrong, songs that require a massive production aren't necessarily that helpful to the church at large. For smaller churches, how is it useful to have songs that require 10 musicians to pull off to even a borderline acceptable standard? Your comment about rock-punk attitude is bang on. Hillsong is the overblown self-indulgent rock music of the early-mid 1970s (I mean, think how long some of their songs go on nowadays): it is time, and over-time, for the punks to take over. I think there's a real opportunity here for strong songwriting and simplified arrangements to win through and displace the turgid mega-productions we're being submitted to with something - at the risk of being accused of rank hipsterism - a little more authentic. Just think how many great bands over the years have been three, four, or five pieces with no massive productions (until, perhaps, later on): The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Blondie, The Police, The Pretenders, The Sex Pistols, The Clash, Manic Street Preachers, Cranberries, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Garbage, U2 (yeah, I know, everybody loves to hate Bono), Metallica, AC/DC, GnR, REM, Radiohead, Paramore, and the list goes on - even Fleetwood Mac were pretty basic to start off with. I'd rather listen to any of these (and many more) than Hillsong or similar. You can do a heck of a lot with an acoustic (or even electric) guitar or two, some percussion, and a couple of voices. If you can add a bass in there, more power to you. [1] There are, obviously, exceptions. Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody doesn't really work as anything other than a big production. Neither does Beethoven's Ode To Joy. The interesting thing about Ode To Joy though is that, if you strip away the massive production, the tune is kind of crappy - it doesn't hold up on its own.
- 8y ago

thrmsforbfast 8y ago

The difference in emphasis you noticed (grace, love, and acceptance vs. joy, freedom, and deliverance) has deep historical roots that go back much further than colonial history. As an exercise, even the apostles -- and the prophets before them -- can be read in terms of which side of this dichotomy they preferred in their rhetoric. If you read the bible every year and choose a list of themes/topics to focus on, this is an interesting one. Another really interesting fact: this difference in style correlates much better with demographics than with doctrine/dogma/congregation. There was a dissertation or maybe book about this, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

akoshodi 8y ago
The Book "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes" reveals how cultural biases influence how we interpret/misinterpret the Bible. One of the examples given was the difference between our (western) individualistic culture and the collectivist culture which the Bible was written.

Twirrim 8y ago

There's another interesting language difference to look at, both within the history of Western worship, and in various countries. Western worship has become heavily "I/Me" based, where historically it was more "Us/We" based. To the point it's starting to drive me crazy. Worship is becoming almost entirely selfish. A group of individuals having an individual experience, instead of a group of people having a collective, binding, experience with God.

BadThink6655321 8y ago
I'm reminded of two things. First, Knuth's article "On the Complexity of Songs", which features K. C. and the Sunshine band's "That's the way..." (Knuth, btw, is a Christian). Second, many years ago, a music minister and I were goofing around with worship songs set to disco music. I did, "That's the way, uh huh, huh huh, I praise Him, uh huh, uh huh..." This was, partly, to express my discontent with I-focused worship and banal lyrics. He responded with an amazing, impromptu version of the Bee Gee's "Staying Alive" with the lyrics "He is alive! He is alive!".

zupzupper 8y ago

Lost and Found (band) I think has some nice song books if you've never come across them. Two piece band, guitar and piano, simple music, large variety of subject matter, very different sound.

bartread 8y ago

> The other thing is that even while Hillsong's and similar music is very shallow and simplistic, it is becoming increasingly difficult to perform with simple, cheap instruments. So small and poor bands like ours lose appeal against the ones in megachurches with lots of instruments, talent-pool and technology. Generally a good song can hold up when performed on a single piano or acoustic guitar, and obviously with a singer[1]. The problem here is not you: it's the songs. Assuming you're half competent musicians, which you sound like you are, they don't sound good when you play them, not because your instruments are cheap and your band is small, but because they don't hold up as songs. They're not strong enough to carry themselves with a simple arrangement. I suspect it's not a conscious effort but what Hillsong (and others) are doing is using an impressive production to disguise weak songs. And even if in some cases I'm wrong, songs that require a massive production aren't necessarily that helpful to the church at large. For smaller churches, how is it useful to have songs that require 10 musicians to pull off to even a borderline acceptable standard? Your comment about rock-punk attitude is bang on. Hillsong is the overblown self-indulgent rock music of the early-mid 1970s (I mean, think how long some of their songs go on nowadays): it is time, and over-time, for the punks to take over. I think there's a real opportunity here for strong songwriting and simplified arrangements to win through and displace the turgid mega-productions we're being submitted to with something - at the risk of being accused of rank hipsterism - a little more authentic. Just think how many great bands over the years have been three, four, or five pieces with no massive productions (until, perhaps, later on): The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Blondie, The Police, The Pretenders, The Sex Pistols, The Clash, Manic Street Preachers, Cranberries, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Garbage, U2 (yeah, I know, everybody loves to hate Bono), Metallica, AC/DC, GnR, REM, Radiohead, Paramore, and the list goes on - even Fleetwood Mac were pretty basic to start off with. I'd rather listen to any of these (and many more) than Hillsong or similar. You can do a heck of a lot with an acoustic (or even electric) guitar or two, some percussion, and a couple of voices. If you can add a bass in there, more power to you. [1] There are, obviously, exceptions. Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody doesn't really work as anything other than a big production. Neither does Beethoven's Ode To Joy. The interesting thing about Ode To Joy though is that, if you strip away the massive production, the tune is kind of crappy - it doesn't hold up on its own.

8y ago