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Birth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. At the time of c

by cure 8y ago

Birth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. At the time of conception, nobody knows how things will turn out in their life a few years down the line. Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? Having kids is a commitment. But you have to take a leap of faith. You can't just undo that commitment later, or walk away from it. But shaming people for having kids? Have you no heart? How on earth is that going to help with anything? Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids?

golergka 8y ago
> Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not neccesarilly a heterosexual or even romantic one) it plain stupid? > Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? When you shame someone for bad decision, the purpose is not to influence these exact people. The purpose is to create a strong understanding in the whole culture that this is a bad decision, and prevent other people from doing the same.
- cure 8y ago
  > There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. I think my point didn't come across. I wasn't talking about avoiding responsibility. I simply meant that it's easy to make assumptions. Just because someone has a child and doesn't have the resources to care for it, doesn't mean that it was always that way. Things in life don't always go as planned. > How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not necessarily a heterosexual or even romantic one) is plain stupid? Personally, I agree with that statement. But who am I to judge other people on their choice to have kids? That's just not my place. And I am also a realist - things happen. Live throws curve-balls. Birth control doesn't always work. And sometimes people do things that are not smart in the spur of the moment. Procreation is a very powerful drive. It seem to me that more and better education and easier/cheaper access to birth control would be a more effective way to help people make smart choices about having children.
wolfgke 8y ago
> Birth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. As I wrote in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18284196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18284196 Let's subsidize vasectomies so that they can ideally be gratis. They just have to be done once. No regular visits necessary. > But shaming people for having kids? Have you no heart? I have a very big heart. But my heart is a deeply rational one instead of an empathic one (I know, I will never become a diplomat). My big, rational heart is the reason why I became very anti-natalist.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  "Sterilize the poor" is, historically, not a great road to start down.
  - ticviking 8y ago
    An opt in program to improve the ability of people who don't want children to reliably control their reproductive choice is wildly different from forced sterilization.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      We've got historical precedent for that, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Sterilization_Procedures_and_Coercion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Steri... > Sterilization was most frequently recommended by physicians because of a pervasive belief that Puerto Ricans and the poor were not intelligent enough to use other forms of contraception. Physicians and hospitals alike also implemented hospital policy to encourage sterilization, with some hospitals refusing to admit healthy pregnant women for delivery unless they consented to be sterilized. This has been best documented at Presbyterian Hospital, where the unofficial policy for a time was to refuse admittance for delivery to women who already had three living children unless she consented to sterilization. There is additional evidence that true informed consent was not obtained from patients before they underwent sterilization, if consent was solicited at all.
darpa_escapee 8y ago
> How on earth is that going to help with anything? Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? You're assuming that the poster actually cares about these things, and not just shaming people he thinks are below him.
fragmede 8y ago
While the method of birth control is a hugely personal choice and thus not "one size fits all", IUDs, where usable, don't require the same routine, regular access to the healthcare system as other methods. The level of FUD surrounding them (as well as RU-486) is ghastly, and the fact that parents can opt their children out of sex eduction is abhorrent. Yes, people should be allowed to make their own decision on whether or not to have a child, but it should be an informed, considered decision, including the cost of supporting a child for their whole life, and not "oh no, the rhythm or pull-out method didn't work, ah well, let's just keep it".

by cure 8y ago

golergka 8y ago

> Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not neccesarilly a heterosexual or even romantic one) it plain stupid? > Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? When you shame someone for bad decision, the purpose is not to influence these exact people. The purpose is to create a strong understanding in the whole culture that this is a bad decision, and prevent other people from doing the same.

cure 8y ago
> There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. I think my point didn't come across. I wasn't talking about avoiding responsibility. I simply meant that it's easy to make assumptions. Just because someone has a child and doesn't have the resources to care for it, doesn't mean that it was always that way. Things in life don't always go as planned. > How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not necessarily a heterosexual or even romantic one) is plain stupid? Personally, I agree with that statement. But who am I to judge other people on their choice to have kids? That's just not my place. And I am also a realist - things happen. Live throws curve-balls. Birth control doesn't always work. And sometimes people do things that are not smart in the spur of the moment. Procreation is a very powerful drive. It seem to me that more and better education and easier/cheaper access to birth control would be a more effective way to help people make smart choices about having children.

wolfgke 8y ago

> Birth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. As I wrote in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18284196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18284196 Let's subsidize vasectomies so that they can ideally be gratis. They just have to be done once. No regular visits necessary. > But shaming people for having kids? Have you no heart? I have a very big heart. But my heart is a deeply rational one instead of an empathic one (I know, I will never become a diplomat). My big, rational heart is the reason why I became very anti-natalist.

ceejayoz 8y ago
"Sterilize the poor" is, historically, not a great road to start down.
- ticviking 8y ago
  An opt in program to improve the ability of people who don't want children to reliably control their reproductive choice is wildly different from forced sterilization.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    We've got historical precedent for that, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Sterilization_Procedures_and_Coercion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Steri... > Sterilization was most frequently recommended by physicians because of a pervasive belief that Puerto Ricans and the poor were not intelligent enough to use other forms of contraception. Physicians and hospitals alike also implemented hospital policy to encourage sterilization, with some hospitals refusing to admit healthy pregnant women for delivery unless they consented to be sterilized. This has been best documented at Presbyterian Hospital, where the unofficial policy for a time was to refuse admittance for delivery to women who already had three living children unless she consented to sterilization. There is additional evidence that true informed consent was not obtained from patients before they underwent sterilization, if consent was solicited at all.

darpa_escapee 8y ago

> How on earth is that going to help with anything? Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? You're assuming that the poster actually cares about these things, and not just shaming people he thinks are below him.

fragmede 8y ago

While the method of birth control is a hugely personal choice and thus not "one size fits all", IUDs, where usable, don't require the same routine, regular access to the healthcare system as other methods. The level of FUD surrounding them (as well as RU-486) is ghastly, and the fact that parents can opt their children out of sex eduction is abhorrent. Yes, people should be allowed to make their own decision on whether or not to have a child, but it should be an informed, considered decision, including the cost of supporting a child for their whole life, and not "oh no, the rhythm or pull-out method didn't work, ah well, let's just keep it".