7 ms·

Instead of complaining about how evil society is that it leaves them in the lurch, poor people should rather be mad at their (often poor) parents that the paren

Instead of complaining about how evil society is that it leaves them in the lurch, poor people should rather be mad at their (often poor) parents that the parents give birth to them.

jamesblonde 8y ago
But who will drive the better off people in their Uber, deliver their groceries, and clean their houses, if there are no poor people left?
- jerkstate 8y ago
  we'll just import some third-worlders to do that stuff while we're waiting for the eggheads to fully automate everything, what could go wrong?
  - darpa_escapee 8y ago
    Does HN think the third-worlders should hate their parents for giving birth to them even if they get an "opportunity" to make it in America?
- arethuza 8y ago
  Robots, apparently.
golergka 8y ago
This. It always baffles me why people are not shamed more for having kids when they clearly have no resources of place for them in their lives.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners, or don't have the resources to access abortion services (especially in states where there are less than a handful of clinics that offer the services in the first place of have regulations explicitly to limit a woman's bodily autonomy rights), or had children before the breadwinner of the family was put in jail or otherwise lost their jobs due to the disproportionate choice in law enforcement in USA. There is, in fact, a massive confluence of reasons why poor people end up having children, and shaming them for doing so instead of helping those reasons will not help anyone.
  - empath75 8y ago
    Also, because they're like _human beings_ who need a family like everyone else does.
  - golergka 8y ago
    Shaming is education. It creates a very strong cultural and emotional tie to knowledge, motivating people to act in a certain way. If we lived on a planet where every person was a rational, level-headed adult, lectures and books would be enough of an education. Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool.
    - darpa_escapee 8y ago
      Shaming creates pariahs. Shaming gives others the incentive to ignore, blame, shun, harm and not help those who are shamed. America has a long, ugly history of shaming single mothers, sexual abuse victims, adulterers and interracial and non-heterosexual relationships. I don't think that we should encourage more of it. > Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool. Would you use the word 'paternalistic' to describe your views on an ideal society?
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      This post does not address the other reasons I have stated.
  - zeroname 8y ago
    > Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners This is not true at all. Everyone knows how not to have children, just like everyone knows smoking can cause cancer. People just take the risk anyway. It's basic human irrationality, no amount of education can fix it. Societal pressure, on the other hand, does have some of the desired effect, even if it's not a "nice thing" like education.
- fallingfrog 8y ago
  Really?? Rather than help people who are struggling to take care of their children, you'd rather shame them, creating another generation of neglected children who grow up into undereducated, angry young people? What is wrong with you?
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > Really?? Rather than help people who are struggling to take care of their children, you'd rather shame them Offering free vasectomies (subsidized from tax money) would indeed not a bad idea to help these people before the problem occurs.
    - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
      Yes. Let's sterilize the poor before they reproduce! /s !
    - fallingfrog 8y ago
      Or, we could give free vasectomies to people who display a total lack of empathy. Don't want to pollute the gene pool!
      - wolfgke 8y ago
        > Or, we could give free vasectomies to people who display a total lack of empathy. If you mean me: I have good, deep reasons why I do not even want children (these reasons shall by off-topic here). And I live by my words so that other people can follow my anti-natalist example. :-)
  - golergka 8y ago
    False dichotomy logic fallacy. These things are not at all mutually exclusive.
  - zeroname 8y ago
    I'm gonna answer your loaded question honestly: Yes, I would rather shame people who are "having kids when they clearly have no resources of place for them in their lives" than spending any of my personal resources on actually helping them, if those are the only two choices I have. Your empathy in and of itself is worthless. How much of your income are you personally willing to give up to bail out people who make poor choices? Where do you draw the line? I hope we can agree that having children without having the resources to take care of them is a poor choice. All that "neglect and undereducation" is due to that poor choice, first and foremost. Welfare doesn't fix the problem. Just look at all the "angry young people" in France (20% youth unemployment), a country which has some of the strongest welfare programs in the world, including free university education.
- cure 8y ago
  Birth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. At the time of conception, nobody knows how things will turn out in their life a few years down the line. Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? Having kids is a commitment. But you have to take a leap of faith. You can't just undo that commitment later, or walk away from it. But shaming people for having kids? Have you no heart? How on earth is that going to help with anything? Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids?
  - golergka 8y ago
    > Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not neccesarilly a heterosexual or even romantic one) it plain stupid? > Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? When you shame someone for bad decision, the purpose is not to influence these exact people. The purpose is to create a strong understanding in the whole culture that this is a bad decision, and prevent other people from doing the same.
    - cure 8y ago
      > There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. I think my point didn't come across. I wasn't talking about avoiding responsibility. I simply meant that it's easy to make assumptions. Just because someone has a child and doesn't have the resources to care for it, doesn't mean that it was always that way. Things in life don't always go as planned. > How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not necessarily a heterosexual or even romantic one) is plain stupid? Personally, I agree with that statement. But who am I to judge other people on their choice to have kids? That's just not my place. And I am also a realist - things happen. Live throws curve-balls. Birth control doesn't always work. And sometimes people do things that are not smart in the spur of the moment. Procreation is a very powerful drive. It seem to me that more and better education and easier/cheaper access to birth control would be a more effective way to help people make smart choices about having children.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  WOW! So, only the well-to-do are allowed to have kids? What dystopia do you live in!?
- crooked-v 8y ago
  Even the most fiscally responsible middle-class person in the US can become entirely broke with massive debt after getting handed medical bills in the six figures.
empath75 8y ago
This is so absurdly misanthropic that I can't possibly believe you're being serious.
perkee 8y ago
The nerve of humans deigning to follow their only drives: survive and replace themselves. Disgusting. A 1.2 billion year unbroken line of sexual reproduction should be enough for anyone.
thanatropism 8y ago
Like everything in social policy, this is more complicated than downvoters realize. Many people who look comfortable in their DINKy lifestyles would love to have kids if they could give them the best in life. I mean, we refuse to have a _dog_. I've been wanting to get a tortoise though. I'm told that once you get their living arrangement right, with the special lamp and whatnot, they're easy to care for.
onemoresoop 8y ago
What if people have kids when the economy is booming and soon fall into poverty due to the economy bust cycle and other factors such as crazy medical bills or some bad luck. Most Americans can't afford kids if they keep in mind that the economy is a rollercoaster and unpredictable events pul them down.

Instead of complaining about how evil society is that it leaves them in the lurch, poor people should rather be mad at their (often poor) parents that the parents give birth to them.

jamesblonde 8y ago

But who will drive the better off people in their Uber, deliver their groceries, and clean their houses, if there are no poor people left?

jerkstate 8y ago
we'll just import some third-worlders to do that stuff while we're waiting for the eggheads to fully automate everything, what could go wrong?
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  Does HN think the third-worlders should hate their parents for giving birth to them even if they get an "opportunity" to make it in America?
arethuza 8y ago
Robots, apparently.

golergka 8y ago

This. It always baffles me why people are not shamed more for having kids when they clearly have no resources of place for them in their lives.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners, or don't have the resources to access abortion services (especially in states where there are less than a handful of clinics that offer the services in the first place of have regulations explicitly to limit a woman's bodily autonomy rights), or had children before the breadwinner of the family was put in jail or otherwise lost their jobs due to the disproportionate choice in law enforcement in USA. There is, in fact, a massive confluence of reasons why poor people end up having children, and shaming them for doing so instead of helping those reasons will not help anyone.
- empath75 8y ago
  Also, because they're like _human beings_ who need a family like everyone else does.
- golergka 8y ago
  Shaming is education. It creates a very strong cultural and emotional tie to knowledge, motivating people to act in a certain way. If we lived on a planet where every person was a rational, level-headed adult, lectures and books would be enough of an education. Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool.
  - darpa_escapee 8y ago
    Shaming creates pariahs. Shaming gives others the incentive to ignore, blame, shun, harm and not help those who are shamed. America has a long, ugly history of shaming single mothers, sexual abuse victims, adulterers and interracial and non-heterosexual relationships. I don't think that we should encourage more of it. > Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool. Would you use the word 'paternalistic' to describe your views on an ideal society?
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    This post does not address the other reasons I have stated.
- zeroname 8y ago
  > Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners This is not true at all. Everyone knows how not to have children, just like everyone knows smoking can cause cancer. People just take the risk anyway. It's basic human irrationality, no amount of education can fix it. Societal pressure, on the other hand, does have some of the desired effect, even if it's not a "nice thing" like education.
fallingfrog 8y ago
Really?? Rather than help people who are struggling to take care of their children, you'd rather shame them, creating another generation of neglected children who grow up into undereducated, angry young people? What is wrong with you?
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > Really?? Rather than help people who are struggling to take care of their children, you'd rather shame them Offering free vasectomies (subsidized from tax money) would indeed not a bad idea to help these people before the problem occurs.
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    Yes. Let's sterilize the poor before they reproduce! /s !
  - fallingfrog 8y ago
    Or, we could give free vasectomies to people who display a total lack of empathy. Don't want to pollute the gene pool!
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > Or, we could give free vasectomies to people who display a total lack of empathy. If you mean me: I have good, deep reasons why I do not even want children (these reasons shall by off-topic here). And I live by my words so that other people can follow my anti-natalist example. :-)
- golergka 8y ago
  False dichotomy logic fallacy. These things are not at all mutually exclusive.
- zeroname 8y ago
  I'm gonna answer your loaded question honestly: Yes, I would rather shame people who are "having kids when they clearly have no resources of place for them in their lives" than spending any of my personal resources on actually helping them, if those are the only two choices I have. Your empathy in and of itself is worthless. How much of your income are you personally willing to give up to bail out people who make poor choices? Where do you draw the line? I hope we can agree that having children without having the resources to take care of them is a poor choice. All that "neglect and undereducation" is due to that poor choice, first and foremost. Welfare doesn't fix the problem. Just look at all the "angry young people" in France (20% youth unemployment), a country which has some of the strongest welfare programs in the world, including free university education.
cure 8y ago
Birth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. At the time of conception, nobody knows how things will turn out in their life a few years down the line. Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? Having kids is a commitment. But you have to take a leap of faith. You can't just undo that commitment later, or walk away from it. But shaming people for having kids? Have you no heart? How on earth is that going to help with anything? Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids?
- golergka 8y ago
  > Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not neccesarilly a heterosexual or even romantic one) it plain stupid? > Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? When you shame someone for bad decision, the purpose is not to influence these exact people. The purpose is to create a strong understanding in the whole culture that this is a bad decision, and prevent other people from doing the same.
  - cure 8y ago
    > There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. I think my point didn't come across. I wasn't talking about avoiding responsibility. I simply meant that it's easy to make assumptions. Just because someone has a child and doesn't have the resources to care for it, doesn't mean that it was always that way. Things in life don't always go as planned. > How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not necessarily a heterosexual or even romantic one) is plain stupid? Personally, I agree with that statement. But who am I to judge other people on their choice to have kids? That's just not my place. And I am also a realist - things happen. Live throws curve-balls. Birth control doesn't always work. And sometimes people do things that are not smart in the spur of the moment. Procreation is a very powerful drive. It seem to me that more and better education and easier/cheaper access to birth control would be a more effective way to help people make smart choices about having children.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
WOW! So, only the well-to-do are allowed to have kids? What dystopia do you live in!?
crooked-v 8y ago
Even the most fiscally responsible middle-class person in the US can become entirely broke with massive debt after getting handed medical bills in the six figures.

empath75 8y ago

This is so absurdly misanthropic that I can't possibly believe you're being serious.

perkee 8y ago

The nerve of humans deigning to follow their only drives: survive and replace themselves. Disgusting. A 1.2 billion year unbroken line of sexual reproduction should be enough for anyone.

thanatropism 8y ago

Like everything in social policy, this is more complicated than downvoters realize. Many people who look comfortable in their DINKy lifestyles would love to have kids if they could give them the best in life. I mean, we refuse to have a _dog_. I've been wanting to get a tortoise though. I'm told that once you get their living arrangement right, with the special lamp and whatnot, they're easy to care for.

onemoresoop 8y ago

What if people have kids when the economy is booming and soon fall into poverty due to the economy bust cycle and other factors such as crazy medical bills or some bad luck. Most Americans can't afford kids if they keep in mind that the economy is a rollercoaster and unpredictable events pul them down.