4 ms·

It's pretty dishonest to play up the democracy aspect of an agency that gets its warrants from a secret court.

altcognito 8y ago
It's not unusual to have secrets in government. Oversight and having a process is key, and that's a much, much deeper rabbit hole as to whether that system is working or not.
- nearlyepic 8y ago
  That's absolutely true. I guess what I was trying to imply is that process isn't working as far as the NSA is concerned.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  The secretive United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) approved 99% of all applications. There's no oversight there.
  - rocqua 8y ago
    Obviously the 99% approval rate is the result of extreme due diligence and strict submission criteria practiced by the covert agencies. On a more serious note, the above could be true, though I believe there is plenty of evidence of approved warrants that should not have been. That would rather undermine the thesis.
  - mhneu 8y ago
    How the FISA Court Really Works (Lawfare) https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-fisa-court-really-works https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-fisa-court-really-works Stanford law review https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/online/is-the-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-court-really-a-rubber-stamp/ https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/online/is-the-foreign-inte... The win rate is misleading for a simple reason: The requests the FISC receives are not a random or representative sample of all cases in which the executive branch believes it would benefit from a warrant. The number and type of government requests are responsive to the level of oversight the court exercises—just as a plaintiff’s decision to litigate is responsive to changes in the law. Because it is costly to make an ex parte application (in time, resources, and reputation) and because the executive has long-running knowledge of how the FISC treats applications, there is little reason to expect agencies to submit losing requests. And while the rarity of ex parte proceedings might make this outcome seem unprecedented or extraordinary, other ex parte proceedings—like those for Title III wiretaps and delayed-notice warrants—display equally lopsided results: the government “wins” almost 100% of the time.
auntienomen 8y ago
Surveillance warrants of any kind -- FISA or otherwise -- are granted in secret, with no argument from the target. It'd be pretty stupid to do it any other way.

It's not unusual to have secrets in government. Oversight and having a process is key, and that's a much, much deeper rabbit hole as to whether that system is working or not.

nearlyepic 8y ago
That's absolutely true. I guess what I was trying to imply is that process isn't working as far as the NSA is concerned.
Someone1234 8y ago
The secretive United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) approved 99% of all applications. There's no oversight there.
- rocqua 8y ago
  Obviously the 99% approval rate is the result of extreme due diligence and strict submission criteria practiced by the covert agencies. On a more serious note, the above could be true, though I believe there is plenty of evidence of approved warrants that should not have been. That would rather undermine the thesis.
- mhneu 8y ago
  How the FISA Court Really Works (Lawfare) https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-fisa-court-really-works https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-fisa-court-really-works Stanford law review https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/online/is-the-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-court-really-a-rubber-stamp/ https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/online/is-the-foreign-inte... The win rate is misleading for a simple reason: The requests the FISC receives are not a random or representative sample of all cases in which the executive branch believes it would benefit from a warrant. The number and type of government requests are responsive to the level of oversight the court exercises—just as a plaintiff’s decision to litigate is responsive to changes in the law. Because it is costly to make an ex parte application (in time, resources, and reputation) and because the executive has long-running knowledge of how the FISC treats applications, there is little reason to expect agencies to submit losing requests. And while the rarity of ex parte proceedings might make this outcome seem unprecedented or extraordinary, other ex parte proceedings—like those for Title III wiretaps and delayed-notice warrants—display equally lopsided results: the government “wins” almost 100% of the time.

auntienomen 8y ago

Surveillance warrants of any kind -- FISA or otherwise -- are granted in secret, with no argument from the target. It'd be pretty stupid to do it any other way.