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As a conservative, I've never really paid any attention to Hillsong stuff. What I did hear of typical pentecostal music struck me as pretty shallow and.....comm

As a conservative, I've never really paid any attention to Hillsong stuff. What I did hear of typical pentecostal music struck me as pretty shallow and.....commercial. Admittedly as an ignoramus, I do wonder how they get around tax exemption while they rake this all in. I know you can't brush everyone with the same stroke, but it feels reminiscent of those mega-pastors that fly around in their private jets to shake hands and take selfies with the poor - the message becomes a sideshow to the brand. It makes me uneasy - but, disclaimer, I don't really know on the pentecostal spectrum of commercialism where they lie.

dwd 8y ago
The Hillsong founders are actually worse where allegations of child abuse were covered up so as to not damage the brand... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/23/hillsongs-brian-houston-failed-to-report-abuse-and-had-conflict-of-interest-royal-commission https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/23/hills...
bartread 8y ago
Uneasy is the word I'd use as well. And in saying this I have to be honest and admit that I can't point to anything specific that's wrong. Hillsong often get the plaudits (and the rap), but there are other similar movements. Worship Central and HTB here in the UK spring immediately to mind. I do go to these kinds of places from time to time and, whatever the organisation, you talk to the people involved: they're approachable and seem genuine, and they talk about empowering and benefitting the church and Christians at large, and I have no evidence to the contrary. All of which just leaves me feeling guilty about my discomfort, and maybe that's OK because maybe I'm wrong. On the flip-side everything is so shiny: everyone you see ministering is beautiful and/or handsome and, although the quality of the music and lyrics might be questionable, the production values are excruciatingly high, and you're surrounded by people - particularly at the front - who appear to be going out of their way to model this kind of aching hyperreal trendiness. Compare this with the composition of the average congregation (of any denomination) in the UK[1]. Even stepping past the issue of ageing congregations in many places, we're (and I mean no unkindness in saying this) a pretty miscellaneous bunch. In lots of churches you end up with all sorts having to get involved in making it work, not just those who are good-looking or loaded or "good people". There's space for everyone, and all can contribute, or at least that's what we aspire to - we believe in a God who calls the things who are not as though they are. Possibly that last observation is rose-tinted when compared with reality, and possibly unfair on Hillsong and its imitators. Still, the contrast between Hillsong-like and most other churches does feel jarring and leaves me with that lingering unease. Sorry: this ended up a lot longer than I expected. [1] Note that I deliberately haven't gone down the route of comparing with the lives and lifestyles of Jesus and the Apostles, not because I necessarily think the comparison is invalid, but because: one, for many people I think there's a lack of familiarity with the source material that may render the comparison meaningless to them, and, two, because the societal and cultural situations are radically different, which makes any such comparison much more complex.
- zellyn 8y ago
  For me, the big problem with this kind of musical/theatrical production is that you're doing one thing — provoking excited emotions and feelings in a group context, just as would happen at a well-produced secular concert, or a moving, personal comedy show — and implicitly or explicitly claiming that it is a personal religious experience. Many times with young people who don't know the difference. I suppose it might be fair to include music-induced group ecstatic experiences in your definition of “religious”. But I find the mix-n-match, the implied claim that the emotion of the large-context experience is actually a result of some kind of personal, relational connection to God, to be a heavily loaded and ambiguous possible untruth. ymmv — I definitely have religion issues :-)
  - bartread 8y ago
    > you're doing one thing — provoking excited emotions and feelings in a group context, just as would happen at a well-produced secular concert, or a moving, personal comedy show — and implicitly or explicitly claiming that it is a personal religious experience. Many times with young people who don't know the difference. That is a very thought-provoking perspective, which I think I'll probably be chewing over for a while - thanks for sharing it.
    - pnathan 8y ago
      I would stringently urge any evangelical who hasn't attended a high energy secular concert - a good one - to go. After you've had that kind of experience, it is like subtracting the noise from the signal. gave me a permanent distaste for "concerts" at church.
  - phd514 8y ago
    This video parody of those kinds of productions both pokes fun at them and raises some of the same kinds of questions about them that you do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4Nx0rNlAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4Nx0rNlAM
    - 8y ago
organman91 8y ago
To explain my username, I'm an organist. I'm not interested in going to a service that's nothing but a rock concert, but we've successfully incorporated some of these songs (Shout to the Lord comes to mind) successfully into a service that also includes standard liturgy, and I definitely enjoy them in that context. I'm not saying the genre isn't full of empty songs, but there are a few with merit in the lyrics.
- daedalus_j 8y ago
  I'm a former organist myself, went through this some years ago before I got out of the business. I was always disappointed that there wasn't more efforts like Marty Haugen's Holden Evening Prayer, which really does a good job of keeping the liturgical structure but updating it to use some new instruments and be applicable in some new ways. I was always supportive of adding new and different music, in fact I spearheaded it in a lot of cases, but the further along we went the more the new music just seemed repetitive and empty. (I can't imagine what it is now, about 9 years since I last played a service.)
giancarlostoro 8y ago
In the Christian sense it isnt proper worship if people are more excited about a band (or their music) in church than they are about God or Jesus. The word for that becomes idolatry and most people partaking in it do not even realize it. They definitely are right there with the megapastors. Megaworship sounds like an appropriate title for them.
maerF0x0 8y ago
> What I did hear of typical pentecostal music struck me as pretty shallow and.....commercial I noted this past sunday that one of the songs had "I" statements for the vast majority of lines. Funny that a song which is intended to speak to God's position (ie, worthy of worship) was so focused on self. Not surprising from one of the most selfish societies to ever have existed.

dwd 8y ago

The Hillsong founders are actually worse where allegations of child abuse were covered up so as to not damage the brand... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/23/hillsongs-brian-houston-failed-to-report-abuse-and-had-conflict-of-interest-royal-commission https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/23/hills...

bartread 8y ago

Uneasy is the word I'd use as well. And in saying this I have to be honest and admit that I can't point to anything specific that's wrong. Hillsong often get the plaudits (and the rap), but there are other similar movements. Worship Central and HTB here in the UK spring immediately to mind. I do go to these kinds of places from time to time and, whatever the organisation, you talk to the people involved: they're approachable and seem genuine, and they talk about empowering and benefitting the church and Christians at large, and I have no evidence to the contrary. All of which just leaves me feeling guilty about my discomfort, and maybe that's OK because maybe I'm wrong. On the flip-side everything is so shiny: everyone you see ministering is beautiful and/or handsome and, although the quality of the music and lyrics might be questionable, the production values are excruciatingly high, and you're surrounded by people - particularly at the front - who appear to be going out of their way to model this kind of aching hyperreal trendiness. Compare this with the composition of the average congregation (of any denomination) in the UK[1]. Even stepping past the issue of ageing congregations in many places, we're (and I mean no unkindness in saying this) a pretty miscellaneous bunch. In lots of churches you end up with all sorts having to get involved in making it work, not just those who are good-looking or loaded or "good people". There's space for everyone, and all can contribute, or at least that's what we aspire to - we believe in a God who calls the things who are not as though they are. Possibly that last observation is rose-tinted when compared with reality, and possibly unfair on Hillsong and its imitators. Still, the contrast between Hillsong-like and most other churches does feel jarring and leaves me with that lingering unease. Sorry: this ended up a lot longer than I expected. [1] Note that I deliberately haven't gone down the route of comparing with the lives and lifestyles of Jesus and the Apostles, not because I necessarily think the comparison is invalid, but because: one, for many people I think there's a lack of familiarity with the source material that may render the comparison meaningless to them, and, two, because the societal and cultural situations are radically different, which makes any such comparison much more complex.

zellyn 8y ago
For me, the big problem with this kind of musical/theatrical production is that you're doing one thing — provoking excited emotions and feelings in a group context, just as would happen at a well-produced secular concert, or a moving, personal comedy show — and implicitly or explicitly claiming that it is a personal religious experience. Many times with young people who don't know the difference. I suppose it might be fair to include music-induced group ecstatic experiences in your definition of “religious”. But I find the mix-n-match, the implied claim that the emotion of the large-context experience is actually a result of some kind of personal, relational connection to God, to be a heavily loaded and ambiguous possible untruth. ymmv — I definitely have religion issues :-)
- bartread 8y ago
  > you're doing one thing — provoking excited emotions and feelings in a group context, just as would happen at a well-produced secular concert, or a moving, personal comedy show — and implicitly or explicitly claiming that it is a personal religious experience. Many times with young people who don't know the difference. That is a very thought-provoking perspective, which I think I'll probably be chewing over for a while - thanks for sharing it.
  - pnathan 8y ago
    I would stringently urge any evangelical who hasn't attended a high energy secular concert - a good one - to go. After you've had that kind of experience, it is like subtracting the noise from the signal. gave me a permanent distaste for "concerts" at church.
- phd514 8y ago
  This video parody of those kinds of productions both pokes fun at them and raises some of the same kinds of questions about them that you do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4Nx0rNlAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4Nx0rNlAM
  - 8y ago

organman91 8y ago

To explain my username, I'm an organist. I'm not interested in going to a service that's nothing but a rock concert, but we've successfully incorporated some of these songs (Shout to the Lord comes to mind) successfully into a service that also includes standard liturgy, and I definitely enjoy them in that context. I'm not saying the genre isn't full of empty songs, but there are a few with merit in the lyrics.

daedalus_j 8y ago
I'm a former organist myself, went through this some years ago before I got out of the business. I was always disappointed that there wasn't more efforts like Marty Haugen's Holden Evening Prayer, which really does a good job of keeping the liturgical structure but updating it to use some new instruments and be applicable in some new ways. I was always supportive of adding new and different music, in fact I spearheaded it in a lot of cases, but the further along we went the more the new music just seemed repetitive and empty. (I can't imagine what it is now, about 9 years since I last played a service.)

giancarlostoro 8y ago

In the Christian sense it isnt proper worship if people are more excited about a band (or their music) in church than they are about God or Jesus. The word for that becomes idolatry and most people partaking in it do not even realize it. They definitely are right there with the megapastors. Megaworship sounds like an appropriate title for them.

maerF0x0 8y ago

> What I did hear of typical pentecostal music struck me as pretty shallow and.....commercial I noted this past sunday that one of the songs had "I" statements for the vast majority of lines. Funny that a song which is intended to speak to God's position (ie, worthy of worship) was so focused on self. Not surprising from one of the most selfish societies to ever have existed.