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I lived for ~10 years in Montreal. From high school to post college, until I moved to SF. My family is still there, so get to go back about twice a year. I real

I lived for ~10 years in Montreal. From high school to post college, until I moved to SF. My family is still there, so get to go back about twice a year. I really love Montreal, and every time I'm back I think about the possibility to go back. Montreal has evolved so much in the past 10-15 years it's incredible. The culture has opened a lot (it was always full of it, but before it was mostly internal culture), better food/coffees etc. Remove construction and winter, and it'd be really the perfect city. I really like things like that evolving in Montreal, because despite being a great city, it doesn't have much great opportunities. You get stuck to a pretty low ceiling pretty easily (at least if you stay an employee). Montreal's salaries are so low it's almost a disgrace. Yes the city is also cheaper, but it still doesn't compare. I made a quick analysis with a friend recently, comparing Montreal with SF. And even if you spend half your money in rent in SF, you'd still get out with more money, etc. The government offers great deals on salaries to tech companies coming to Montreal, so I'd love to see some more regulations on those salaries and pushing to make them higher. For a remote worker with a decent salary, going to Montreal is great tho. With the recent immigration issues with Trump, I've heard a lot of US-based workers moving to Vancouver or Toronto. I'd recommend greatly Montreal. You don't need to speak French.

guessmyname 8y ago
> Montreal's salaries are so low it's almost a disgrace. > Yes the city is also cheaper, but it still doesn't compare. I cannot highlight this enough. I got offered $90k/year (base salary, no stock options, one bonus capped at 10%) For a Senior Engineering position at a company with big infrastructure and capital. If that's an offer for a Senior Engineer, I cannot imagine what a Junior is getting.
- ilarum 8y ago
  90k CAD or USD?
  - carlmr 8y ago
    CAD would be pretty normal in my Montreal experience. Great city for studying, terrible for staying. I still miss Montreal though.
    - jypepin 8y ago
      Yeah this is too bad and a big issues. Good, cheap schools. People come study and then realise opportunities are not that great and go work somewhere else. Most of friends left after their studies.
  - guessmyname 8y ago
    CAD $90k/year which is roughly USD $70k/year This is considering that I speak French, have 10+ years of work experience doing software development. I even suggested my interest in an Engineering Manager position due to my experience leading teams in my two previous jobs. They only added $10k to the base salary and stopped there. They didn't seem to be interested to negotiate, they just sat in that offer for one week rejecting all my suggestions to increase my salary, until I decided to decline all together. All this, after 6 engineering and hiring managers from that company came to my city to recruit Senior Engineers, interviewing around 30 people, selecting around 8 of us for a technical interview, then giving an offer to just 3 of us. I am not sure if the other two candidates accepted the offer. I hope not, this way they can learn a lesson and increase their salaries next time.
- gregob 8y ago
  I was born and raised in Montreal and there is a bit of cultural shock between Americans and Quebecers. Here, mostly in the French community, wealth isn't well perceived at all and is kind of a taboo. For some reason if you earn considerable money, say 100k which is twice the average salary in QC, people immediately assume you are doing something illegal or unethical. You can't drive a big car without getting the mean eye. Especially if you are one of those "replacing people with machines." Moreover, the language barrier blocked the French companies to see what's going on outside of QC. This definitely keeps the salaries down and now every HR department in town think it offers competitive conditions. You also have to know that the Engineering title is protected in Quebec and that you can't call yourself an engineer in any field without a diploma that is approved by the OIQ (http://oiq.qc.ca/Pages/accueil.aspx?lang=en http://oiq.qc.ca/Pages/accueil.aspx?lang=en). It makes no difference in the long run but software engineers can expect around 30k more than non-engineers when getting out of school. My friends and I make good money while studying Software Engineering full time. We are top of our class, but we make around ~80K CAD working as developers in a big Canadian bank and all have offers ranging from 120K to 180K CAD for when we graduate. My point is that there are good opportunities in Montreal but you definitely have to shop a lot.
  - kd22 8y ago
    > and all have offers ranging from 120K to 180K CAD for when we graduate. I have a lot of friends in the tech industry in Montreal and this does not seem to be true at all. You maybe top of your class but for recent graduates to earn that kind of money is unheard of.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - gregob 8y ago
      Saying we are recent graduates is a bit of a stretch (mostly PhDs), my wording could have been better. I totally agree these salaries don’t represent the local startup scene or even the tech scene. If you are not looking exclusively at Startups, there is plenty of companies, especially in finance, banking, actuary and insurance, that are looking for talent in AI/Data science and can offer excellent salaries in Montreal. Working in a (very) corporate environment isn’t for everyone but Montreal is such a nice place, imho the trade off is absolutely worth it.
- arandr0x 8y ago
  They're getting 50-55k. OTOH their rent is 500 to 800 a month (including electricity and sometimes internet), and they can buy a house in the suburbs if they want for about 300 to 400k. (All prices CAD.) Montreal has a ton of startups and companies that offer good stock options/RSUs/bonus packages as well, you can shop around for those. This is not a bad tradeoff -- consider 5x the rent and 4x the house price in SF, which is a less safe city with much worse suburb to city transit options, and only what, 2.5x the salary?
  - jypepin 8y ago
    Numbers scale exponentially tho. Let me put everything in USD base and then do a napkin comparison: Montreal: - av salary: cad$70k -> $55k - av rent: cad$860 -> $656 - net: $47 128 SF: - av salary: $135k - av rent: $3.5k - net: $93 000 Taxes are very similar so let's keep them out. Again obviously this is back of the napkin, and there are other factors, such as healthcare etc. but actually, unless you have a very specific situation (lots of kids, lots of health issues, etc) it still seems better to be in SF, COST WISE. I'm not saying life is terrible in Montreal, I love Montreal :) But having done both, in the technologies sector, the difference is huge. If you work in another domain this is not true, but engineers are paid so much in the US, it's hard to beat.
    - totony 8y ago
      I was going to make the same calculation. You at least double your salary (or more if you're top 10% software engineer) by going to cali
    - arandr0x 8y ago
      Yeah I can see the argument. I think this forum in general is too easily weighted towards considering money vs everything else in life though. I wanted to show numbers for a life that (considering the low CoL of the area) was perfectly good and maybe a little less rat-racy. Also out of pure patriotism we just have way too many Canadians leaving so they can make more money in the US... but there definitely is innovation here also (maybe even more innovation, just less capital) so people who don't need as much money but are anxious about their skills getting outdated can definitely stay in Montreal.
- moltar 8y ago
  Juniors are offered CAD 65-75 fresh out of school.
arandr0x 8y ago
The salary is less of a problem if you're growing old there -- Montreal is a nice balance between the US and major European cities, where there is a pretty big social safety net. You don't need to pay for health insurance, childcare is much less expensive, college if you remain in the province as well, there is paid parental leave, that sort of thing. You do have to deal with winters and traffic which some people especially as they age get very frustrated with. At this point in my life I would not consider again working in the US though. There's a certain amount of "life" I need in my "work/life balance" and I'm not sure I can get it in a country where it costs two months' salary just to deliver your kid.
jpambrun 8y ago
Montreal's salaries are indeed a disgrace. I live in Montreal, but work remotely for an American company. I am paid in USD what is twice the average for the same thing here. With all of our code running in datacenters nowadays, I can offer my services anywhere. Local compagnies need to wake up and start competing in the global market or they will suffer from a new kind of brain drain.
moltar 8y ago
AI jobs are $150k+ in Montreal.

guessmyname 8y ago

> Montreal's salaries are so low it's almost a disgrace. > Yes the city is also cheaper, but it still doesn't compare. I cannot highlight this enough. I got offered $90k/year (base salary, no stock options, one bonus capped at 10%) For a Senior Engineering position at a company with big infrastructure and capital. If that's an offer for a Senior Engineer, I cannot imagine what a Junior is getting.

ilarum 8y ago
90k CAD or USD?
- carlmr 8y ago
  CAD would be pretty normal in my Montreal experience. Great city for studying, terrible for staying. I still miss Montreal though.
  - jypepin 8y ago
    Yeah this is too bad and a big issues. Good, cheap schools. People come study and then realise opportunities are not that great and go work somewhere else. Most of friends left after their studies.
- guessmyname 8y ago
  CAD $90k/year which is roughly USD $70k/year This is considering that I speak French, have 10+ years of work experience doing software development. I even suggested my interest in an Engineering Manager position due to my experience leading teams in my two previous jobs. They only added $10k to the base salary and stopped there. They didn't seem to be interested to negotiate, they just sat in that offer for one week rejecting all my suggestions to increase my salary, until I decided to decline all together. All this, after 6 engineering and hiring managers from that company came to my city to recruit Senior Engineers, interviewing around 30 people, selecting around 8 of us for a technical interview, then giving an offer to just 3 of us. I am not sure if the other two candidates accepted the offer. I hope not, this way they can learn a lesson and increase their salaries next time.
gregob 8y ago
I was born and raised in Montreal and there is a bit of cultural shock between Americans and Quebecers. Here, mostly in the French community, wealth isn't well perceived at all and is kind of a taboo. For some reason if you earn considerable money, say 100k which is twice the average salary in QC, people immediately assume you are doing something illegal or unethical. You can't drive a big car without getting the mean eye. Especially if you are one of those "replacing people with machines." Moreover, the language barrier blocked the French companies to see what's going on outside of QC. This definitely keeps the salaries down and now every HR department in town think it offers competitive conditions. You also have to know that the Engineering title is protected in Quebec and that you can't call yourself an engineer in any field without a diploma that is approved by the OIQ (http://oiq.qc.ca/Pages/accueil.aspx?lang=en http://oiq.qc.ca/Pages/accueil.aspx?lang=en). It makes no difference in the long run but software engineers can expect around 30k more than non-engineers when getting out of school. My friends and I make good money while studying Software Engineering full time. We are top of our class, but we make around ~80K CAD working as developers in a big Canadian bank and all have offers ranging from 120K to 180K CAD for when we graduate. My point is that there are good opportunities in Montreal but you definitely have to shop a lot.
- kd22 8y ago
  > and all have offers ranging from 120K to 180K CAD for when we graduate. I have a lot of friends in the tech industry in Montreal and this does not seem to be true at all. You maybe top of your class but for recent graduates to earn that kind of money is unheard of.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - gregob 8y ago
    Saying we are recent graduates is a bit of a stretch (mostly PhDs), my wording could have been better. I totally agree these salaries don’t represent the local startup scene or even the tech scene. If you are not looking exclusively at Startups, there is plenty of companies, especially in finance, banking, actuary and insurance, that are looking for talent in AI/Data science and can offer excellent salaries in Montreal. Working in a (very) corporate environment isn’t for everyone but Montreal is such a nice place, imho the trade off is absolutely worth it.
arandr0x 8y ago
They're getting 50-55k. OTOH their rent is 500 to 800 a month (including electricity and sometimes internet), and they can buy a house in the suburbs if they want for about 300 to 400k. (All prices CAD.) Montreal has a ton of startups and companies that offer good stock options/RSUs/bonus packages as well, you can shop around for those. This is not a bad tradeoff -- consider 5x the rent and 4x the house price in SF, which is a less safe city with much worse suburb to city transit options, and only what, 2.5x the salary?
- jypepin 8y ago
  Numbers scale exponentially tho. Let me put everything in USD base and then do a napkin comparison: Montreal: - av salary: cad$70k -> $55k - av rent: cad$860 -> $656 - net: $47 128 SF: - av salary: $135k - av rent: $3.5k - net: $93 000 Taxes are very similar so let's keep them out. Again obviously this is back of the napkin, and there are other factors, such as healthcare etc. but actually, unless you have a very specific situation (lots of kids, lots of health issues, etc) it still seems better to be in SF, COST WISE. I'm not saying life is terrible in Montreal, I love Montreal :) But having done both, in the technologies sector, the difference is huge. If you work in another domain this is not true, but engineers are paid so much in the US, it's hard to beat.
  - totony 8y ago
    I was going to make the same calculation. You at least double your salary (or more if you're top 10% software engineer) by going to cali
  - arandr0x 8y ago
    Yeah I can see the argument. I think this forum in general is too easily weighted towards considering money vs everything else in life though. I wanted to show numbers for a life that (considering the low CoL of the area) was perfectly good and maybe a little less rat-racy. Also out of pure patriotism we just have way too many Canadians leaving so they can make more money in the US... but there definitely is innovation here also (maybe even more innovation, just less capital) so people who don't need as much money but are anxious about their skills getting outdated can definitely stay in Montreal.
moltar 8y ago
Juniors are offered CAD 65-75 fresh out of school.

arandr0x 8y ago

The salary is less of a problem if you're growing old there -- Montreal is a nice balance between the US and major European cities, where there is a pretty big social safety net. You don't need to pay for health insurance, childcare is much less expensive, college if you remain in the province as well, there is paid parental leave, that sort of thing. You do have to deal with winters and traffic which some people especially as they age get very frustrated with. At this point in my life I would not consider again working in the US though. There's a certain amount of "life" I need in my "work/life balance" and I'm not sure I can get it in a country where it costs two months' salary just to deliver your kid.

jpambrun 8y ago

Montreal's salaries are indeed a disgrace. I live in Montreal, but work remotely for an American company. I am paid in USD what is twice the average for the same thing here. With all of our code running in datacenters nowadays, I can offer my services anywhere. Local compagnies need to wake up and start competing in the global market or they will suffer from a new kind of brain drain.

moltar 8y ago

AI jobs are $150k+ in Montreal.