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> I don’t really understand what kind of “advanced” things you are referring to not being possible on iOS. Could you expand on that? I could give you one. An a

> I don’t really understand what kind of “advanced” things you are referring to not being possible on iOS. Could you expand on that? I could give you one. An actual user-accessible filesystem instead of having only iCloud plus siloed app-specific storage. (No, Apple's eventual capitulation to include a "Files" app which just aggregates files from different apps doesn't count.)

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Seconded. Hiding the filesystem is both destroying productivity and fucking up people's mental model of computing. I hate when people build abstractions that lie to you about the way things work - because lies are always inconsistent, they'll eventually leak and confuse people. Proficient users aren't born, they're made. Or, increasingly, not made, thanks to contemporary UX trends.
- wingerlang 8y ago
  What do you need the filesystem for on your device? I've had direct access to my filesystem on my iOS devices since 2012 and it is very very rare that I use it. And when I do it is mostly for fun and exploration, nothing a normal user would be doing anyway.
- codetrotter 8y ago
  I am not sure that the way files are usually presented is actually that much better. You and I know that a file is data and a file format is defined by the structure of the data. Most regular users I have talked to don’t know this. If you ask them what a file format is they will say that the file format is determined by the extension of the file. Even with a file system presented to the user you still end up with most people not having a real understanding of what files actually are. Likewise, a lot of users will insist that certain file formats “belong” to some particular program, just because the extension associated with the format is handled by that program on their computer. Furthermore, most users have no idea what really happens when you open a file in a program. In fact I would bet that at least some are completely unable to distinguish the data of the file from the interface that they are using to edit the file. A file system is a powerful abstraction, but I don’t think it teaches the “truth” on its own. Neither do I think knowing about files is the most important for someone wishing to understand computation. The most important to understand is what a data format is, and knowing that knowing the details of the byte-level structure of the data is what allows software to be implemented to interact with and optionally transform that data. Furthermore, I wish more people knew some fundamental things about data like - the difference between text and an image of text - the difference between bitmap and vector graphics - the difference between lossy and lossless compression, and how these work - why some formats are hard to work with, for example extracting data from PDF files Etc. Understanding these things does not require a user visible fs, nor will a user visible fs help most people understand these things for reasons I stated earlier in this comment.
- wilsonnb3 8y ago
  All abstractions eventually leak and confuse people. The file system itself is an imperfect abstraction.
- dkonofalski 8y ago
  >Hiding the filesystem is both destroying productivity and fucking up people's mental model of computing That's nonsense. Most users don't care that there's a file system and they surely don't care how it works. They care that, when they open up Microsoft Word, they can find the document they last created or an older document. They care that, when they open an app called Photos, they see their pictures. They don't care how they're stored by the computer or how they're organized, they only care that they can find what they're looking for when they're looking for it. It may be easier for you to navigate through a file system because that's how you've adapted your workflow but to say that not having one is somehow destroying productivity is crazy nonsense. You're taking your individual experience and extrapolating it on populations that are not similar to you at all. I mean... do you honestly thing that Donald Trump/your grandmother/a teenager cares that there's a file system on his iPhone?
azag0 8y ago
We must use the phone in very different ways. I spend hours a day in a terminal, so I live by a file system on a computer. Yet I've never felt the need for a filesystem on an iPhone.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

Seconded. Hiding the filesystem is both destroying productivity and fucking up people's mental model of computing. I hate when people build abstractions that lie to you about the way things work - because lies are always inconsistent, they'll eventually leak and confuse people. Proficient users aren't born, they're made. Or, increasingly, not made, thanks to contemporary UX trends.

wingerlang 8y ago
What do you need the filesystem for on your device? I've had direct access to my filesystem on my iOS devices since 2012 and it is very very rare that I use it. And when I do it is mostly for fun and exploration, nothing a normal user would be doing anyway.
codetrotter 8y ago
I am not sure that the way files are usually presented is actually that much better. You and I know that a file is data and a file format is defined by the structure of the data. Most regular users I have talked to don’t know this. If you ask them what a file format is they will say that the file format is determined by the extension of the file. Even with a file system presented to the user you still end up with most people not having a real understanding of what files actually are. Likewise, a lot of users will insist that certain file formats “belong” to some particular program, just because the extension associated with the format is handled by that program on their computer. Furthermore, most users have no idea what really happens when you open a file in a program. In fact I would bet that at least some are completely unable to distinguish the data of the file from the interface that they are using to edit the file. A file system is a powerful abstraction, but I don’t think it teaches the “truth” on its own. Neither do I think knowing about files is the most important for someone wishing to understand computation. The most important to understand is what a data format is, and knowing that knowing the details of the byte-level structure of the data is what allows software to be implemented to interact with and optionally transform that data. Furthermore, I wish more people knew some fundamental things about data like - the difference between text and an image of text - the difference between bitmap and vector graphics - the difference between lossy and lossless compression, and how these work - why some formats are hard to work with, for example extracting data from PDF files Etc. Understanding these things does not require a user visible fs, nor will a user visible fs help most people understand these things for reasons I stated earlier in this comment.
wilsonnb3 8y ago
All abstractions eventually leak and confuse people. The file system itself is an imperfect abstraction.
dkonofalski 8y ago
>Hiding the filesystem is both destroying productivity and fucking up people's mental model of computing That's nonsense. Most users don't care that there's a file system and they surely don't care how it works. They care that, when they open up Microsoft Word, they can find the document they last created or an older document. They care that, when they open an app called Photos, they see their pictures. They don't care how they're stored by the computer or how they're organized, they only care that they can find what they're looking for when they're looking for it. It may be easier for you to navigate through a file system because that's how you've adapted your workflow but to say that not having one is somehow destroying productivity is crazy nonsense. You're taking your individual experience and extrapolating it on populations that are not similar to you at all. I mean... do you honestly thing that Donald Trump/your grandmother/a teenager cares that there's a file system on his iPhone?

azag0 8y ago

We must use the phone in very different ways. I spend hours a day in a terminal, so I live by a file system on a computer. Yet I've never felt the need for a filesystem on an iPhone.