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> That is the paragraph that captures the essence of the CoC issues for me. A CoC seems to be used as a weapon for killing those that do not abide by its rules,

> That is the paragraph that captures the essence of the CoC issues for me. A CoC seems to be used as a weapon for killing those that do not abide by its rules, not as a tool for teaching each other to be awesome to each other. Can I ask an honest question? Do you really think that men advocating for molestation of women, or open racists, are just... you know... undereducated and waiting for you as a thought-savior to come and explain to them what's objectionable about their thinking? Do you think that Ts'o just needed you to step in and explain how domestic sexual abuse is rape and that he's just being insufficiently awesome[0]? I'm all for assuming positive intent, but at some point this game becomes patronizing, even infantilizing. It seems bizarre to propose Linux's CoC or GNU's is the place to go educating people that rape apology is bad. I don't think it's bad that Stallman decided to go this route (even if I disagree with some of the logic he expressed). To be honest, I don't think the GNU org actually has that much sway or control over individual projects, so guidelines for successful contribution are probably an appropriate measure for them. But Projects can and in my opinion should quantify what constitutes acceptable behavior from their contributors. This is not an unfair or unreasonable thing for a project to do. It's bizarre to me that people here constantly suggest that it's somehow unfair to bar a developer from participating. This is about the most anti-free-speech, anti-individual-autonomy stance one can propose in the world of software. It's a statement that says the production of value (often not for the community, but at the behest of corporate funding) outweighs the individual's rights to free association. It suggests that reprehensible people with reprehensible views can simply use economic value or unique education to force themselves on communities, and those communities should not be able to choose for themselves because the value of these things should be self-evident. It's completely nonsensical. [0]: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/0037.html http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/0037.html

lliamander 8y ago
> Do you think that Ts'o just needed you to step in and explain how domestic sexual abuse is rape and that he's just being insufficiently awesome[0]? So you believe that Ts'o claimed that domestic sexual abuse is not rape? Let's see what he actually wrote: > Also in the survey, in the rapes that were reported via a randomized telephone survey, in 66.9% of those cases, the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim. (Which makes it no less a crime, of course, but people may have images of rape which involves a other physical injuries, by a stranger, in some dark and deserted place. The statistics simply don't bear that out) OK, so it seems that his own words contradict your assertion. Care to explain?
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > OK, so it seems that his own words contradict your assertion. Care to explain? To quote the conclusion: >> Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is, and or any particular person's experience. However, I am challenging the use of statistics that may be hyperbolic and misleading, and ultimately may be very counterproductive if it causes people to become afraid when the reality might not be as horrible as the "1 in 4" numbers might at first sound. "Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is but I'd like to diminish the statistics around rape because when I think of rape I think of 80's movies where a brute forces a woman's legs open and not, you know, casual nonviolent stuff." Ts'o tells us his aim with this, to try and cast doubt on the the way statistics are reported or used by attempting to draw a line between what he nonsensically separates as "violent" and "non-violent" rape. The idea that Rape is not Harm is a bit like suggesting that it's not really Home Robbery if you're not home while the burglar is there. It's like suggesting that if I take your wallet while you're drunk and passed out, I didn't steal from you because you were asking for it. And that you'd be in the wrong if you tried to call it theft, because there were no knives brandished and basically it wasn't stealing. Did you read the citation carefully? It seems very obvious to me. Your pullquote doesn't even really invalidate my point. Forgive me, but it looks to me like you'd never actually read this article but you went looking through it for the very first quote that met your exoneration criterion, without regard to how it fit into the whole rhetorical structure.
  - lliamander 8y ago
    > Did you read the citation carefully? It seems very obvious to me. Your pullquote doesn't even really invalidate my point. Forgive me, but it looks to me like you'd never actually read this article but you went looking through it for the very first quote that met your exoneration criterion, without regard to how it fit into the whole rhetorical structure. I've read it numerous times, thank you very much, paying close attention to the rhetorical structure and trying to understand the overall point he was trying to communicate. Clearly, you and I are inclined to interpret his overall intent differently. It does not help your case to put words in his mouth that are patent contradictions of what he actually said.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
will4274 8y ago
> Do you think that Ts'o just needed you to step in and explain how domestic sexual abuse is rape and that he's just being insufficiently awesome[0]? Am I missing the back story here? The poster explicitly says he is not trying to diminish the awfulness of rape, just concerned that some cited statistics are inaccurate about its frequency. I'm not sure how this topic comes up in a software project, but, is this really an example of rape apology to you? Surely everybody wants to discuss issues honestly, using the best possible data.
- mcguire 8y ago
  "This appears to be the source of the 1 in 6 figure (17.6%). But it's worth going deeper. If you look at percentage of women reporting rape since age 18 (taking out the child abuse and statutory rape cases, which they also treat in detail), it becomes 1 in 10 (9.6%), and of those over 61.9% were at the hands of their intimate partner, as opposed to an acquaintance or stranger. Also in the survey, in the rapes that were reported via a randomized telephone survey, in 66.9% of those cases, the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim. (Which makes it no less a crime, of course, but people may have images of rape which involves a other physical injuries, by a stranger, in some dark and deserted place. The statistics simply don't bear that out.)" This seems to be implying that "child abuse and statutory rape" should not be counted as rape and that rape "at the hands of their intimate partner" or where "the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim" are not "real" rape.
  - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
    In some states, definitely in the past and perhaps even today though I haven't kept abreast of the law, there were different ages deemed legal for a relationship based on the genders involved. To defend the statistic is to, likely unknowingly, defend the discrimination the laws hold in both structure and application. I am not saying one should discount all cases covered under the law, but it does deserve some context given the sometimes sordid history of the laws.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
jasonlotito 8y ago
> Do you really think that men advocating for molestation of women, or open racists, are just... you know... undereducated and waiting for you as a thought-savior to come and explain to them what's objectionable about their thinking? People don't advocate for the molestation of women, but they do it. They just don't see it as advocating for the molestation of women. They see it as "boys will be boys." They see it what they are doing as harmless. So to answer your question: yes. Not all, but some. Proof can be found here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/18/opinion/men-metoo-high-school.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/18/opinion/men-m... This is an excellent quote that really highlights the reality. Making it clear what is right and what is wrong goes a long way toward education. > Of course, no man or teenager should behave that way, but I don’t think that event stuck out in my mind until recently, when so many women went public with the trauma they had experienced. It hadn’t occurred to me that she may have felt violated or pressured or afraid because of my lack of self-control. There are many other stories like this, not just in this article. > but at some point this game becomes patronizing But it's not, because people don't know better. You might, but realize that others don't, and their behavior will change because of these rules.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  Can I be brutally honest for a moment? If by the time you're an adult you don't know that women have body autonomy, your degree of ignorance borders on willful and your opinion of women includes a lesser definition of freedom and autonomy. The best way to get the word out, as it were, is to remind folks that this is not true via example cases. Expecting the same rhetorical strategy that has enabled men for so long to suddenly start working is absurd. An we're seeing the "punish the worst offenders publicly" strategy making a huge impact. This is in fact in line with the (often lauded) work of First Wave Feminism, in that creating such a fuss that it cannot be ignored and becomes a focal point of social consideration is essentially what got women the vote. In this effort, I think western third-wave feminism has found a clear path forward. It's also a path we can apply to all people equally, to demonstrate that feminism is (despite its name) not a movement that puts women first, but rather on equal footing. Women can be rapists, and the current #metoo movement has shown it's willing to expose and punish its own. A movement a lot of MRA-leaning folks have been demanding for some time.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
Fascinating, a polite citation of statistics and analyses by Mr. Ts'o, one from a government organization and another from a university, is somehow characterized a defense of one of the most heinous acts imaginable? I also encourage HN readers to examine the link KirinDave provided, as he himself suggests, as well as the documents actually linked to. It rather revelatory how at odds the hyperbole directed at Mr. Ts'o is with what was actually said by him. Is permitting people with biases so extreme to write CoCs what we really want?
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > Fascinating, a polite citation of statistics and analyses by Mr. Ts'o, one from a government organization and another from a university, is somehow characterized a defense of one of the most heinous acts imaginable? Could you point to the specific document Ts'o was citing that suggests statutory rape not be bundled with other rape statistics? His very literal conclusion is that bundling these should be considered misleading. > Is permitting people with biases so extreme to write CoCs what we really want? Quite remarkable how you take me to task for hyperbole and then try to raft my personal opinion to the Linux CoC, of which I have absolutely 0 connection. One need not be a particularly astute reader to note what a dishonest tactic this is.
atq2119 8y ago
In fairness, the context of the Ts'o email seems to be conference organization, and it points out that large fractions of the rape statistics are made out of domestic abuse and drunk undergrads. Neither of those seem particularly relevant for conference organization, so it should be possible to point out those simple facts without being immediately tarred as a rape apologist. I do believe most of the people in favor of CoCs mean well, but the first paragraph of your comment basically reads like an unsubstantiated attempt at character assassination of and by a random person on the internet, and I guess lots of people are (probably unjustifiedly, but whatever) afraid that CoCs will provide cover for engaging in precisely this kind of poisonous behavior.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > In fairness, the context of the Ts'o email seems to be conference organization, and it points out that large fractions of the rape statistics are made out of domestic abuse and drunk undergrads. Which seems fairly relevant to a technical conference's audience, don't you... > Neither of those seem particularly relevant for conference organization, so it should be possible to point out those simple facts without being immediately tarred as a rape apologist. Oh. So you think pointing out that many rapes are crimes of opportunity isn't relevant to tech conferences because... why exactly? It seems like exactly the sort of environment where such opportunities arise. > but the first paragraph of your comment basically reads like an unsubstantiated attempt at character assassination Ts'o said these things. He stands by them. He wants to try an draw a line between one type of rape and another to change the way people discuss statistics, specifically to affect how scaled social events are organized. It's amazing to me that folks are passionately defending such a textbook example of at-scale apologism. We would not even imagine suffering this argument if we substituted "rape" for "wallet theft." But Ts'o does level it for rape precisely because he believes it's appropriate to tactically blame victims and subdivide statistics.
  - atq2119 8y ago
    I don't know what kind of conferences you attend, but I've never attended one where people got black-out drunk, nor have I attended any with my partner. On the other hand, I have attended conferences where we were specifically warned by the organizers about pick-pockets and not to go into certain parts of the (rather large, South American) city. So yeah, if we substitute "rape" for "wallet theft", people are in fact "suffering" through arguments that people throw a fit over when it comes to rape. (Two caveats, since that kind of thing is necessary with topics that are prone to cause people to go ballistic: 1. I do think there are good reasons for why people throw fits over victim blaming etc. when it comes to rape, but especially since you brought up the comparison, I also think it's good to remember that people are perfectly fine with victim blaming when it comes to wallet theft. There should be a possibility for nuance here. 2. I get what you're trying to say about "crimes of opportunity", but that doesn't mean you can transfer statistics about incident rates of domestic abuse to incidence rates of rape at conferences. After all, both the whole setting and the relationships between participants are totally different. And it should be possible to question the connection without being made a target for the kind of accusation you're making.)
haberman 8y ago
I don't think Ted Ts'o is a "rape apologist", nor a "reprehensible person." I don't think that calling him that is "educating people", I think it is expressing a particular narrative and world view, one I happen to disagree with. I agree that communities should be able to set standards for themselves. However, are you willing to accept that not everyone agrees with your personal standards? Many people would not agree with the way you have characterized Ts'o above -- should such people get a say in setting the community standards also?
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > I agree that communities should be able to set standards for themselves. However, are you willing to accept that not everyone agrees with your personal standards? Many people would not agree with the way you have characterized Ts'o above -- should such people get a say in setting the community standards also? It's certainly obvious that many people here have personal standard which include "selectively defining rape with many qualifiers to discourage people from citing aggregate statistics in social or organizational policy decisions."

lliamander 8y ago

> Do you think that Ts'o just needed you to step in and explain how domestic sexual abuse is rape and that he's just being insufficiently awesome[0]? So you believe that Ts'o claimed that domestic sexual abuse is not rape? Let's see what he actually wrote: > Also in the survey, in the rapes that were reported via a randomized telephone survey, in 66.9% of those cases, the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim. (Which makes it no less a crime, of course, but people may have images of rape which involves a other physical injuries, by a stranger, in some dark and deserted place. The statistics simply don't bear that out) OK, so it seems that his own words contradict your assertion. Care to explain?

KirinDave 8y ago
> OK, so it seems that his own words contradict your assertion. Care to explain? To quote the conclusion: >> Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is, and or any particular person's experience. However, I am challenging the use of statistics that may be hyperbolic and misleading, and ultimately may be very counterproductive if it causes people to become afraid when the reality might not be as horrible as the "1 in 4" numbers might at first sound. "Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is but I'd like to diminish the statistics around rape because when I think of rape I think of 80's movies where a brute forces a woman's legs open and not, you know, casual nonviolent stuff." Ts'o tells us his aim with this, to try and cast doubt on the the way statistics are reported or used by attempting to draw a line between what he nonsensically separates as "violent" and "non-violent" rape. The idea that Rape is not Harm is a bit like suggesting that it's not really Home Robbery if you're not home while the burglar is there. It's like suggesting that if I take your wallet while you're drunk and passed out, I didn't steal from you because you were asking for it. And that you'd be in the wrong if you tried to call it theft, because there were no knives brandished and basically it wasn't stealing. Did you read the citation carefully? It seems very obvious to me. Your pullquote doesn't even really invalidate my point. Forgive me, but it looks to me like you'd never actually read this article but you went looking through it for the very first quote that met your exoneration criterion, without regard to how it fit into the whole rhetorical structure.
- lliamander 8y ago
  > Did you read the citation carefully? It seems very obvious to me. Your pullquote doesn't even really invalidate my point. Forgive me, but it looks to me like you'd never actually read this article but you went looking through it for the very first quote that met your exoneration criterion, without regard to how it fit into the whole rhetorical structure. I've read it numerous times, thank you very much, paying close attention to the rhetorical structure and trying to understand the overall point he was trying to communicate. Clearly, you and I are inclined to interpret his overall intent differently. It does not help your case to put words in his mouth that are patent contradictions of what he actually said.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

will4274 8y ago

> Do you think that Ts'o just needed you to step in and explain how domestic sexual abuse is rape and that he's just being insufficiently awesome[0]? Am I missing the back story here? The poster explicitly says he is not trying to diminish the awfulness of rape, just concerned that some cited statistics are inaccurate about its frequency. I'm not sure how this topic comes up in a software project, but, is this really an example of rape apology to you? Surely everybody wants to discuss issues honestly, using the best possible data.

mcguire 8y ago
"This appears to be the source of the 1 in 6 figure (17.6%). But it's worth going deeper. If you look at percentage of women reporting rape since age 18 (taking out the child abuse and statutory rape cases, which they also treat in detail), it becomes 1 in 10 (9.6%), and of those over 61.9% were at the hands of their intimate partner, as opposed to an acquaintance or stranger. Also in the survey, in the rapes that were reported via a randomized telephone survey, in 66.9% of those cases, the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim. (Which makes it no less a crime, of course, but people may have images of rape which involves a other physical injuries, by a stranger, in some dark and deserted place. The statistics simply don't bear that out.)" This seems to be implying that "child abuse and statutory rape" should not be counted as rape and that rape "at the hands of their intimate partner" or where "the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim" are not "real" rape.
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  In some states, definitely in the past and perhaps even today though I haven't kept abreast of the law, there were different ages deemed legal for a relationship based on the genders involved. To defend the statistic is to, likely unknowingly, defend the discrimination the laws hold in both structure and application. I am not saying one should discount all cases covered under the law, but it does deserve some context given the sometimes sordid history of the laws.
  - KirinDave 8y ago

jasonlotito 8y ago

> Do you really think that men advocating for molestation of women, or open racists, are just... you know... undereducated and waiting for you as a thought-savior to come and explain to them what's objectionable about their thinking? People don't advocate for the molestation of women, but they do it. They just don't see it as advocating for the molestation of women. They see it as "boys will be boys." They see it what they are doing as harmless. So to answer your question: yes. Not all, but some. Proof can be found here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/18/opinion/men-metoo-high-school.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/18/opinion/men-m... This is an excellent quote that really highlights the reality. Making it clear what is right and what is wrong goes a long way toward education. > Of course, no man or teenager should behave that way, but I don’t think that event stuck out in my mind until recently, when so many women went public with the trauma they had experienced. It hadn’t occurred to me that she may have felt violated or pressured or afraid because of my lack of self-control. There are many other stories like this, not just in this article. > but at some point this game becomes patronizing But it's not, because people don't know better. You might, but realize that others don't, and their behavior will change because of these rules.

KirinDave 8y ago
Can I be brutally honest for a moment? If by the time you're an adult you don't know that women have body autonomy, your degree of ignorance borders on willful and your opinion of women includes a lesser definition of freedom and autonomy. The best way to get the word out, as it were, is to remind folks that this is not true via example cases. Expecting the same rhetorical strategy that has enabled men for so long to suddenly start working is absurd. An we're seeing the "punish the worst offenders publicly" strategy making a huge impact. This is in fact in line with the (often lauded) work of First Wave Feminism, in that creating such a fuss that it cannot be ignored and becomes a focal point of social consideration is essentially what got women the vote. In this effort, I think western third-wave feminism has found a clear path forward. It's also a path we can apply to all people equally, to demonstrate that feminism is (despite its name) not a movement that puts women first, but rather on equal footing. Women can be rapists, and the current #metoo movement has shown it's willing to expose and punish its own. A movement a lot of MRA-leaning folks have been demanding for some time.

ThrowawayR2 8y ago

Fascinating, a polite citation of statistics and analyses by Mr. Ts'o, one from a government organization and another from a university, is somehow characterized a defense of one of the most heinous acts imaginable? I also encourage HN readers to examine the link KirinDave provided, as he himself suggests, as well as the documents actually linked to. It rather revelatory how at odds the hyperbole directed at Mr. Ts'o is with what was actually said by him. Is permitting people with biases so extreme to write CoCs what we really want?

KirinDave 8y ago
> Fascinating, a polite citation of statistics and analyses by Mr. Ts'o, one from a government organization and another from a university, is somehow characterized a defense of one of the most heinous acts imaginable? Could you point to the specific document Ts'o was citing that suggests statutory rape not be bundled with other rape statistics? His very literal conclusion is that bundling these should be considered misleading. > Is permitting people with biases so extreme to write CoCs what we really want? Quite remarkable how you take me to task for hyperbole and then try to raft my personal opinion to the Linux CoC, of which I have absolutely 0 connection. One need not be a particularly astute reader to note what a dishonest tactic this is.

atq2119 8y ago

In fairness, the context of the Ts'o email seems to be conference organization, and it points out that large fractions of the rape statistics are made out of domestic abuse and drunk undergrads. Neither of those seem particularly relevant for conference organization, so it should be possible to point out those simple facts without being immediately tarred as a rape apologist. I do believe most of the people in favor of CoCs mean well, but the first paragraph of your comment basically reads like an unsubstantiated attempt at character assassination of and by a random person on the internet, and I guess lots of people are (probably unjustifiedly, but whatever) afraid that CoCs will provide cover for engaging in precisely this kind of poisonous behavior.

KirinDave 8y ago
> In fairness, the context of the Ts'o email seems to be conference organization, and it points out that large fractions of the rape statistics are made out of domestic abuse and drunk undergrads. Which seems fairly relevant to a technical conference's audience, don't you... > Neither of those seem particularly relevant for conference organization, so it should be possible to point out those simple facts without being immediately tarred as a rape apologist. Oh. So you think pointing out that many rapes are crimes of opportunity isn't relevant to tech conferences because... why exactly? It seems like exactly the sort of environment where such opportunities arise. > but the first paragraph of your comment basically reads like an unsubstantiated attempt at character assassination Ts'o said these things. He stands by them. He wants to try an draw a line between one type of rape and another to change the way people discuss statistics, specifically to affect how scaled social events are organized. It's amazing to me that folks are passionately defending such a textbook example of at-scale apologism. We would not even imagine suffering this argument if we substituted "rape" for "wallet theft." But Ts'o does level it for rape precisely because he believes it's appropriate to tactically blame victims and subdivide statistics.
- atq2119 8y ago
  I don't know what kind of conferences you attend, but I've never attended one where people got black-out drunk, nor have I attended any with my partner. On the other hand, I have attended conferences where we were specifically warned by the organizers about pick-pockets and not to go into certain parts of the (rather large, South American) city. So yeah, if we substitute "rape" for "wallet theft", people are in fact "suffering" through arguments that people throw a fit over when it comes to rape. (Two caveats, since that kind of thing is necessary with topics that are prone to cause people to go ballistic: 1. I do think there are good reasons for why people throw fits over victim blaming etc. when it comes to rape, but especially since you brought up the comparison, I also think it's good to remember that people are perfectly fine with victim blaming when it comes to wallet theft. There should be a possibility for nuance here. 2. I get what you're trying to say about "crimes of opportunity", but that doesn't mean you can transfer statistics about incident rates of domestic abuse to incidence rates of rape at conferences. After all, both the whole setting and the relationships between participants are totally different. And it should be possible to question the connection without being made a target for the kind of accusation you're making.)

haberman 8y ago

I don't think Ted Ts'o is a "rape apologist", nor a "reprehensible person." I don't think that calling him that is "educating people", I think it is expressing a particular narrative and world view, one I happen to disagree with. I agree that communities should be able to set standards for themselves. However, are you willing to accept that not everyone agrees with your personal standards? Many people would not agree with the way you have characterized Ts'o above -- should such people get a say in setting the community standards also?

KirinDave 8y ago
> I agree that communities should be able to set standards for themselves. However, are you willing to accept that not everyone agrees with your personal standards? Many people would not agree with the way you have characterized Ts'o above -- should such people get a say in setting the community standards also? It's certainly obvious that many people here have personal standard which include "selectively defining rape with many qualifiers to discourage people from citing aggregate statistics in social or organizational policy decisions."