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> A feudal monarchy makes a fine ally. The next it isn't, it doesn't. The next day, one little murder in the journalist persecution capital of the world threate

by rdtsc 8y ago

> A feudal monarchy makes a fine ally. The next it isn't, it doesn't. The next day, one little murder in the journalist persecution capital of the world threatens to blow up the entire alliance, military, political & economic. Just like selective law enforcement is a tool used to oppress and exert power so is selective outrage used to drive public opinion. There is something odd about this case. It is a terrible crime of course and should be condemned. But it seems we went from the head of Interpol disappearing in China and everyone not caring much, to let's start a war with SA over a journalist most people haven't heard of before. Something is unusual and I feel there is more to the story and more to the motivation to push the story at this point in time.

hobs 8y ago
The connection is that they have grisly details to his murder, connected it to personal stories (did his wife get the recording he made with his apple watch? did who call whom before he died? Did it happen while he was still alive?) instead of generic humdrum disappearances among the elite. How a story is told matters a lot to how people react to it.
- netcan 8y ago
  I agree. Though, how the story gets told is a sort of random chance event too. At least in terms of material there's plenty of anecdotal dirt always. A few years back there was a ton bit of scandal around executions of witches/sorcerers. Official, public executions... for magic. MBS' first big notable act was a giant rounding up of Saudi businessmen and aristocrats, threatening them and confiscating their wealth/power.
naeem 8y ago
Is Russian bot-net spreading and inciting outrage through millions of fake accounts in order to destabilize SA in the Middle East roaming too far into tin-foil-hat theory?
- cryoshon 8y ago
  no, it isn't. but even if there WAS a russian botnet pushing the story, SA deserves to fall.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  Not tinfoil hat stuff, but not a particularly good strategic move for Russia. SA-Russian relations have been strained by Syria, but they've actually improved substantially since mid/late 2016. MBS was in Moscow talking military issues in May 2016. And in September SA signed an agreement with Russia to limit oil production, widely seen as a major win for SA and OPEC more broadly. At the time, MBS explicitly told the Washington Post (of all papers) that he intended to coordinate with Russia to encourage them to move their regional focus from Tehran to Riyadh. In 2017, they followed that up with a massive three-part contract selling Russian weapons to SA, committing Saudi money to energy investments in Russia, and bringing Russian petrochemical plants into SA. Later in 2017, the Saudis started pressuring the US to drop sanctions on Russia over Ukraine. Saudi/Russian relations aren't perfect, but they've improved substantially. And more importantly, the improvement is heavily tied to MBS personally and his new direction for the country. Meanwhile, Turkey is heavily pushing this story via the Istanbul consulate angle, in what's generally described as an attempt to destabilize a regional competitor and personally undermine MBS and his new direction. (Turkey likewise has strained-but-improving relations with Russia thanks to the work of its new strongman leader.) Depending on who you listen to, some of the extended Saud family is also advocating for this to become a crisis in order to oust MBS and return SA to its older positions. So I can't really see what Russia gains from striking out at SA now, especially via a line that does less to weaken the country and more to weaken a specific leader who's been more friendly to Russia than his predecessors. This looks like a regional spat between two states Russia has been courting, plus an internal fight on which Russia sides heavily with MBS.
theowidkeie 8y ago
Kashoggi is the straw that broke the camel’s back. That camel’s load has been pretty heavy, with everything from State Sponsored Terrorism to spreading of radical Wahhabism/Salafism to human rights violation. And worse, they’re always buttering us up with claims of special friendships and promises of change. It’s hoped that the Kashoggi Affair is something that will truly catalyze change in that regressive society. And hey, if a Tunisian burning himself to the ground started the Arab Spring, maybe Kashoggi can catalyze a change in our US Foreign Policy.
mercurysmessage 8y ago
Some people know more about what is going on, like SA war in Yemen.
rsync 8y ago
"... over a journalist most people haven't heard of before. Something is unusual and I feel there is more to the story and more to the motivation to push the story at this point in time." The victim was a reporter for the Washington Post and so it doesn't surprise me that his peers in the press are driving the story more than other stories. Not only do they have a personal connection to this individual but his death is a particular affront to their power and their role in the political process - and they have a weapon to wield in response.

by rdtsc 8y ago

hobs 8y ago

The connection is that they have grisly details to his murder, connected it to personal stories (did his wife get the recording he made with his apple watch? did who call whom before he died? Did it happen while he was still alive?) instead of generic humdrum disappearances among the elite. How a story is told matters a lot to how people react to it.

netcan 8y ago
I agree. Though, how the story gets told is a sort of random chance event too. At least in terms of material there's plenty of anecdotal dirt always. A few years back there was a ton bit of scandal around executions of witches/sorcerers. Official, public executions... for magic. MBS' first big notable act was a giant rounding up of Saudi businessmen and aristocrats, threatening them and confiscating their wealth/power.

naeem 8y ago

Is Russian bot-net spreading and inciting outrage through millions of fake accounts in order to destabilize SA in the Middle East roaming too far into tin-foil-hat theory?

cryoshon 8y ago
no, it isn't. but even if there WAS a russian botnet pushing the story, SA deserves to fall.
Bartweiss 8y ago
Not tinfoil hat stuff, but not a particularly good strategic move for Russia. SA-Russian relations have been strained by Syria, but they've actually improved substantially since mid/late 2016. MBS was in Moscow talking military issues in May 2016. And in September SA signed an agreement with Russia to limit oil production, widely seen as a major win for SA and OPEC more broadly. At the time, MBS explicitly told the Washington Post (of all papers) that he intended to coordinate with Russia to encourage them to move their regional focus from Tehran to Riyadh. In 2017, they followed that up with a massive three-part contract selling Russian weapons to SA, committing Saudi money to energy investments in Russia, and bringing Russian petrochemical plants into SA. Later in 2017, the Saudis started pressuring the US to drop sanctions on Russia over Ukraine. Saudi/Russian relations aren't perfect, but they've improved substantially. And more importantly, the improvement is heavily tied to MBS personally and his new direction for the country. Meanwhile, Turkey is heavily pushing this story via the Istanbul consulate angle, in what's generally described as an attempt to destabilize a regional competitor and personally undermine MBS and his new direction. (Turkey likewise has strained-but-improving relations with Russia thanks to the work of its new strongman leader.) Depending on who you listen to, some of the extended Saud family is also advocating for this to become a crisis in order to oust MBS and return SA to its older positions. So I can't really see what Russia gains from striking out at SA now, especially via a line that does less to weaken the country and more to weaken a specific leader who's been more friendly to Russia than his predecessors. This looks like a regional spat between two states Russia has been courting, plus an internal fight on which Russia sides heavily with MBS.

theowidkeie 8y ago

Kashoggi is the straw that broke the camel’s back. That camel’s load has been pretty heavy, with everything from State Sponsored Terrorism to spreading of radical Wahhabism/Salafism to human rights violation. And worse, they’re always buttering us up with claims of special friendships and promises of change. It’s hoped that the Kashoggi Affair is something that will truly catalyze change in that regressive society. And hey, if a Tunisian burning himself to the ground started the Arab Spring, maybe Kashoggi can catalyze a change in our US Foreign Policy.

mercurysmessage 8y ago

Some people know more about what is going on, like SA war in Yemen.

rsync 8y ago

"... over a journalist most people haven't heard of before. Something is unusual and I feel there is more to the story and more to the motivation to push the story at this point in time." The victim was a reporter for the Washington Post and so it doesn't surprise me that his peers in the press are driving the story more than other stories. Not only do they have a personal connection to this individual but his death is a particular affront to their power and their role in the political process - and they have a weapon to wield in response.